"Emerging from the ground"

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darkenergy

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Weirton WV 26062
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semi-retired electrician
Timeless Dead-Horse discussion, all the usual scenarios. PLENTY of beating here, cursory query. Trying to be 'sure'.... still 2017 NEC, (HANDBOOK got lotsa pics, WV native if that helps) 'til Aug. 2022.

With the readers/respondents (hopefully) permission, We will cast aside "where exposed to physical damage" for the moment, might even be verbatim for LFNMC. Different Dead-Horse.

$/'Teachable Moment' riding on this post in a manner of speaking. The AHJ in question has serious mental issues, IMHO. So does his Father. ALL the formers' inspections PASS, but the pricing is variable. 😂 Father is somewhat of an **s hole...Sorry!... stickler for 'details'. He adds 'going in to ground'.

FINALLY found it. Again. For the umpteenth time.

Seeking consensus.

300.50 (C). NOT typing all that, Battery is surely dead in my Dragon® dictate wireless headpiece, not online much this time of year. Mental Issues bad enough to deal with. Spent an inordinate amount of time over time reading, 'memorized' certain things...Even BEFORE the current Circus-like state of affairs, there was a dearth of in-stock Schedule 80 sweep 90°'s from local suppliers..."extending from the minimum cover depth specified in Table 300.50..." in the mix. Only a handful to date where relevant, not quite 5 yrs. in current 'Racket'.

It's PART II. "Requirements for over 1000 volts, Nominal". Exhibit 310.3 'seared' in my memory...Additional 10 min. to find that. Mind like a STEEL TRAP! springs broken/sprung for some time, apparently.

KEY POINT/QUESTION: ONLY written in Tome for +1000 V? Y/N ?

OTHER scenarios, ( the usual suspects) 'subjective' via AHJ?

Any time you may have to spare and/or opinions/definitive answers to venture would be greatly appreciated. I know for a fact that many newbies to the trade read this forum. Think ya have to be 'registered' to query the database, can't really recall that tidbit?

Thank You.
 
300.5 and 300.50 have similar requirements. OP seems to taking exception to inspector required coverage for buried conductors? Even if it's not over 1000V covered by 300.50, lesser voltage is covered by 300.5.
Like others stated, what is question?
 
I`ve been staring @ this thread reading several times, personal attempt to decifer. Possibly, he's talking about protection from physical damage 300,50(C) in mentioning Schedual 80 PVC "Sweeps" and extending from the "minimum cover depth" to point of 8` above finish grade. ... My good deed for the evening, in attempting to decifer.
 
tom baker said:
I am not sure what the question is?
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My sincere apologies Gentlemen, thought someone would have read the code reference(s)? MY 'Rationalization/Poor Excuse for a Rushed, and admittedly in hindsight, poorly worded question. In my personal discussions, ( of course, i love my DAD) He and Many, Many, others, over time, have insisted that schedule 80 is required, 'emerging/going into' ground. "IT's in the Code". Thought i 'knew' it for sure. Too. Back when i was installing, followed the concept religiously, In my zeal to become more 'professional' over time. I COMPLETELY missed the over 1000v nominal, 'Qualifier' contained in PART II.

300.50 is the only place where Schedule 80 is a requirement, NOT subject to anyones opinion of "exposed to physical damage". OVER 1000 V nominal, To the best of my ability to determine. Again, My apologies for a hastily written, poorly worded request for consensus, Y/N?

Schedule 40 is permitted everywhere else, in/out of ground-wise as far as i can determine. EVEN LFNMC is 'permitted', again, far as i can determine, also. NEVER did that method myself, If for no other reason than it looks 'sloppy'. Did fail one inspection 3+ decades ago. The AHJ failed me because 'The "GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTOR" was not GREEN. Going to the ground rods. Felt like telling her to 'come back in a year, probably green by then'. She meant well and was new. A civil questioning in a diplomatic manner...' I probably misread something here in the codebook, could you please explain it to me?' worked wonders.
NEVER a requirement to exceed #6 going to the ground rods ONLY. REGARDLESS of service size. In the code, it says in that instance that you can go to the first one, acorn nut. 2 more acorn nuts to jumper to the second. DB Waterline clamps are also acceptable in my interpretation, Generally cost more than acorns though. Three local Utilities treat the condition as an actual GEC, mandate one continuous. They are Permitted to EXCEED code, but NOT diminish it. If the Utility states in the "Customer Requirements" that the meter socket 'must' be purple, if ya wanna have them hook it up and put a meter in it, better make it Purple. Have in the past run #4 (copper of course, <18" inches above ground,lol) "in one continuous piece" THROUGH both ground rods in route to the waterline on the other side of the House, Totally finished basement, PLASTER walls and ceilings, 'Worst Case'. NO minimum burial depth, just 'aesthetically pleasing' (And my interpretation of 110.12) to the discerning Homeowner, 'Hidden' from the Crack Heads. 'Sizing' based on 250.66. 'Largest Conductor'. Typically 0000 alum.

NOTHING to do with 250.122, "Equipment Grounding Conductors" based on breaker size.

"Exposed to Physical Damage"? IT IS an AHJ call at that point. 'Common Sense' is subjective to say the least, mostly residential. When i was doing the work i even used such 80 going from the meter socket to the weatherhead. Generally only mildly bowed, if at all, from the supply house. Much easier to plumb up (level up and down) as one person. Don't think anyone will ask if this went above the roof as a 'Mast'.

Again, Gentlemen, My SINCERE apologies. If I have mis-stated ANYTHING factually,
As always, i would appreciate being corrected. Sorry for wasting Your Time. Too.

P.S. Definitely don't mean to appear condescending by mentioning Code articles, Etc. OLD HAT to the Majority here I would imagine. Strictly for, and My DEEPEST apologies to the 3 fine young men that i told to 'check out' this post.

Probably never gonna hear the end of it. DAD is 85+, my biggest competition.







 
That’s a long post and I am still not sure what the question is.
Your comment on the GEC to a ground rod:
The GEC goes to the first ground rod. It’s a bonding jumper to the next rod. NEC is very clear on this
Or two wires and three clamps
Some AHJs want to see 1 wire and 2 clamps, but that is wrong
 
I'll just pick one thing from the OP's last post. You can run the #6 if it runs to the rod(s) alone. Once you leave the rod and go to the water pipe, you have to run #4.
 
Thanks again Mr Baker, believe i replied to you personally earlier in the week, might not have been real clear there. Either.

1) The Question, distilled as simply as I'm able. Can ANYONE provide a Code reference where it say 'Shall' As it relates to Schedule 80 being 'required' for entering/emerging from grade, and the length above/below grade, OTHER than for PART II. Requirements for OVER 1000 Volts, Nominal; 300.50 (C) Protection from Damage?
(a) 'exposed to physical damage" is clearly subjective. Approval contingent on the person putting the sticker on. Agreed?

Probably going to move 'Ground rods' to the more relevant thread. As stated previously, trying to encourage 3 fine young men in particular to sign up/engage.
 
LarryFine said:
Or you could hit the water pipe first.
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Generalized response to several replies, this one was physically in the middle at the time and I'm typing by hand. Should/Will move this discussion to 'Grounding in bonding' but feel obligated to reply. "Haste made waste" of several respondents time. Again, my apologies. Will DEFINITELY stick to ONE topic per post as much as possible henceforth. Not afraid to stick my neck out, anymore, but the disjointed manner in which i did is not good. *see: haste makes waste.

Again, this post was to encourage 3 fine young men to engage, and i have already violated 'convention' by mentioning 'Grounding' when there is a defined arena for same, Great role model, I be.

I did convince them to get the NEC reference cards for 2017. "but it says right here in 250.66 that We can use #8 copper for the GEC for #2 alum. surely that would be fine for the ground rods too" And it is but there are exceptions as you are pr aware from running along the bottom of joists inside based on wire size to physical protection outside and the potential 'bonding issues' if using metal...Like i said, gonna move it to the appropriate place my time permitting. Even busy today, and grateful, surprising amount of new home construction here in northern wv/western pa.

Thanks for your sincere efforts, and venturing your 'best guess' as to what I was talking about. Much appreciated.

No room to chide, but counterintuitive to "hit the waterline first". Thought I was pretty clear that I 'picked up' the ground rods ON THE WAY to the water line. Wire size based on 0000 alum.

Again, thank You all for taking the time to respond, Don't think that one response qualifies as a 'Ufer', length and wire size notwithstanding. Vapor barrier wrong side. 😂
 
darkenergy said:
I did convince them to get the NEC reference cards for 2017. "but it says right here in 250.66 that We can use #8 copper for the GEC for #2 alum. surely that would be fine for the ground rods too" And it is but there are exceptions as you are pr aware from running along the bottom of joists inside based on wire size to physical protection outside and the potential 'bonding issues' if using metal...Like i said, gonna move it to the appropriate place my time permitting. Even busy today, and grateful, surprising amount of new home construction here in northern wv/western pa.

No room to chide, but counterintuitive to "hit the waterline first". Thought I was pretty clear that I 'picked up' the ground rods ON THE WAY to the water line. Wire size based on 0000 alum.

Again, thank You all for taking the time to respond, Don't think that one response qualifies as a 'Ufer', length and wire size notwithstanding. Vapor barrier wrong side. 😂
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Use of 8 AWG is not practical as it needs to be run in conduit for protection. Better off use 6 or larger
For ground rods size of service conductors does not matter as the max GEC is 6 AWG
 
tom baker said:
It would be too confusing to move as the post is on more than one subject. You can always start a new post.
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Sound advice. sorry i missed this, been busy and not on site for awhile.
Brief update, as it relates to 'Schedule 80 Required"
2020 NEC, which will be adopted 'here' in Aug., revised 250.64(2) & (3) to mandate Sch. 80

Thanks for the advise, busy begging for advice in another area.

Take care,willy
 
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