mollydodger
Member
Does anyone know of a company that makes a LISTED fitting to connect EMT DIRECTLY to LMC or LNMC in LARGER THAN 3/4 trade size???? TIA 
EMT to Liquidtite
- Thread starter mollydodger
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
mollydodger said:Does anyone know of a company that makes a LISTED fitting to connect EMT DIRECTLY to LMC or LNMC in LARGER THAN 3/4 trade size???? TIA
Sure a listed EMT connector, a listed RMC coupling and a listed LFMC connector.
Nothing 'not listed' about it.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Yep, that's a list, all right. :grin:iwire said:
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Yep use em all the time
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
iwire said:
Is a listed EMT connector listed to be installed with a listed RMC coupling?
Is a listed LFMC connector listed to be installed with a listed RMC coupling?
Pierre C Belarge said:
You been hanging around Joe Tedesco? I remember a very long thread on this a while back, complete with NEMA threaded fitting standards and the works, and the best conclusion I took away from it was:
a) somebody from NEMA is semi-OK with the rigid coupling business but would be happier if a single piece fitting were used. The powerpoint presentation that somebody posted basically said it was a gray area and as long as the thread system matched (!) it wasn't a clear listing violation.
b) While these single piece couplings exist, nobody that has actually used them thought much of the quality. I tried to find them in Cincinnati and couldn't find any, I could only get FMC to EMT fittings and I thought those were junky enough.
c) If a NEMA person is making casual non-binding statements to the effect that it is not a listing violation to use the RMC coupling method than there must not be any issues with it from a practical point of view and they've already assessed that introducing the product and making a stink about RMC-coupling-method-people still won't sell any fancy couplings.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Pierre C Belarge said:
IMO no, not specifically. Just like a wire nut is not specifically listed to connect a blue conductor to red conductor.
A coupling is listed (I imagine) to be used as a coupling, connectors are listed for connecting.
Is the threaded end of an EMT connector 'listed' to be connected to any specific item?
Is an RMC coupling listed to couple any specific item?
You already saw OZ-Gedney says chase nipples can be used with RMC couplings.
TOOL_5150
Senior Member
- Location
- bay area, ca
iwire said:
Still stirring the pot, huh Pierre? :grin:
But really, Where does it end. Does romex have to be listed to be used in the back stab terminal of a receptacle, or can it only be solid THHN? Is a reducer bushing listed to go in a coupling, or can it only go into the socket end of a fitting?
I think sometimes it gets a little out of hand sometimes about listing of an item and the use of an item. A coupling couples, an emt compression nut /and ring connect emt to the fitting. Why would there be any reason to not be able to use an emt compression connecter, threaded on to a coupling and have a LFMC connector threaded into that. All fittings are using the correct connections to connect to each other.
It would be different if you were using a 1/2 FMC to 1/2 EMT connector to go from 1/2 EMT to 3/4 EMT. But that is not what we are talking about.
</rant>
This was not meant to be directed to anyone specifically - just voicing my opinion.
~Matt
- Location
- Massachusetts
M. D. said:
M.D. I am at a loss to understand the problem.....really...I just do not understand it. :-?
If an RMC fitting can be a reliable fault path for two sections of RMC why in the world would it not be reliable fault path between two connectors?
In both case being 'made up tight' would be a key phrase.
tryinghard
Senior Member
- Location
- California
iwire said:
This is how we do it
Make um tight if there loose it won't work and its a code violation.
LJSMITH1
Senior Member
- Location
- Stratford, CT
For a cable or conduit fitting to be UL listed, it needs to pass the rigors of testing outlined in UL514B. What some don't realize is that just because a fitting may seem secure in its connection, it still may not meet the specifications in UL514B for that particular use. For example, if someone uses a fitting that was designed only for FMC to EMT, but uses it for GRC to EMT, it may seem ok to the installer. However, the application of that fitting is not intended nor listed for that use. Manufacturers who make these fittings cannot be responsible for product uses which were not intended - like that protector plate issue in another thread.
I receive a few calls about using a fitting with a conduit for which it is not listed - i.e. FMC with a standard EMT setscrew fitting. :-? My response is short - "the fitting is not designed nor UL Listed for that application." The UL tests are specific and complete.
For example:
A 1/2", setscrew fitting with locknut (zinc, aluminum, steel, or malleable) must meet the following key requirements:
Design
- There must be a conduit end stop.
- There imust be a minimum amount of thread projection.
- The ID must meet a defined tolerance.
- The wall thicknesses must not be below an established minimum.
- Any surface in contact with insulated conductors must be smooth and free of burrs.
Mechanical
- The fitting must assemble as intended without any modifications.
- The set screw must be tightened to 35 in-lbs.
- The locknut must be able to be tightened handtight, plus 1/4 turn.
- The fitting must past the bend test where it is mounted horizontally, and a 20 lb load is suspended from it while the assembly is rotated 360 degrees in 1 minute. It cannot loosen or break. It must pass a an electrical and pull test after.
- The fitting must pass a static pull test - 300lbs for 1 minute.
Electrical
- Using 30A DC through conduit, fitting, and enclosure, the voltage drop shall not be greater than 10 millivolts, or after the bend test - 15 millivolts.
- The fitting must withstand 1180A for 4 seconds and shall not crack or break, and there shall be continuity between the enclosure, fitting, and raceway following the test. A throat insulator complies where the insulator arcs and burns as a result of the test.
Miscellaneous
- Concrete tight test
- Wire Pull Test
- Metallic coating thickness test
- Marking
These UL tests (and the order of them) are not necessarily the same for a MC/AC fitting, a compression fitting, or a non-metallic fitting. The specification has defined fitting types and the requirements to be tested for each type.
When in doubt about what use the fitting is listed for, contact the manufacturer. They should be able to easily clarify the intended use.
I receive a few calls about using a fitting with a conduit for which it is not listed - i.e. FMC with a standard EMT setscrew fitting. :-? My response is short - "the fitting is not designed nor UL Listed for that application." The UL tests are specific and complete.
For example:
A 1/2", setscrew fitting with locknut (zinc, aluminum, steel, or malleable) must meet the following key requirements:
Design
- There must be a conduit end stop.
- There imust be a minimum amount of thread projection.
- The ID must meet a defined tolerance.
- The wall thicknesses must not be below an established minimum.
- Any surface in contact with insulated conductors must be smooth and free of burrs.
Mechanical
- The fitting must assemble as intended without any modifications.
- The set screw must be tightened to 35 in-lbs.
- The locknut must be able to be tightened handtight, plus 1/4 turn.
- The fitting must past the bend test where it is mounted horizontally, and a 20 lb load is suspended from it while the assembly is rotated 360 degrees in 1 minute. It cannot loosen or break. It must pass a an electrical and pull test after.
- The fitting must pass a static pull test - 300lbs for 1 minute.
Electrical
- Using 30A DC through conduit, fitting, and enclosure, the voltage drop shall not be greater than 10 millivolts, or after the bend test - 15 millivolts.
- The fitting must withstand 1180A for 4 seconds and shall not crack or break, and there shall be continuity between the enclosure, fitting, and raceway following the test. A throat insulator complies where the insulator arcs and burns as a result of the test.
Miscellaneous
- Concrete tight test
- Wire Pull Test
- Metallic coating thickness test
- Marking
These UL tests (and the order of them) are not necessarily the same for a MC/AC fitting, a compression fitting, or a non-metallic fitting. The specification has defined fitting types and the requirements to be tested for each type.
When in doubt about what use the fitting is listed for, contact the manufacturer. They should be able to easily clarify the intended use.
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Yes, I was stirring the post... mine and others favorite pasttime here. :grin:
My real intention was not to really stir the post, but to try and bring attention to Listed products and what most of us really lack in terms of misunderstanding how and what the listing really is.
There have been so many field type installations, that they have become acceptable to most people. As a matter of fact, to some those different "field installations" that have become acceptable seem to some as the only way to install some of this stuff.
I am not an engineer and I do not own a testing company with all the gadgets. So, I rely on the testing companies and manufacturers to provide me with enough information to come to an educated decision.
Bob brought up the OZ-Gedney thread. That is exactly what I am thinking of here. A manufacturer providing written documetation to help me along my way.
My real intention was not to really stir the post, but to try and bring attention to Listed products and what most of us really lack in terms of misunderstanding how and what the listing really is.
There have been so many field type installations, that they have become acceptable to most people. As a matter of fact, to some those different "field installations" that have become acceptable seem to some as the only way to install some of this stuff.
I am not an engineer and I do not own a testing company with all the gadgets. So, I rely on the testing companies and manufacturers to provide me with enough information to come to an educated decision.
Bob brought up the OZ-Gedney thread. That is exactly what I am thinking of here. A manufacturer providing written documetation to help me along my way.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
LJSMITH1
The discussion is not about misapplying a fitting (i.e. FMC into a LQ fitting), it is about fittings and rigid couplings.
Does the listing of a fitting allow it to be threaded into a:
cast hub?
rigid coupling?
conduit body?
For example, specific to this discussion: is it allowable to install an EMT or FMC connector into a threaded rigid coupling?
The discussion is not about misapplying a fitting (i.e. FMC into a LQ fitting), it is about fittings and rigid couplings.
Does the listing of a fitting allow it to be threaded into a:
cast hub?
rigid coupling?
conduit body?
For example, specific to this discussion: is it allowable to install an EMT or FMC connector into a threaded rigid coupling?
- Location
- Massachusetts
LJSMITH1 said:
I think we are all aware what UL listings mean, please do not assume that we do not. :smile:
Perhaps as Jim pointed out you missed what we where talking about here.
No one is suggestion using say an SER connector to connect LFMC. We are simply talking about using RMC couplings to 'couple' two connectors.
The strongest UL statement on this was just 'they have not been investigated for that purpose' which to me does not mean it is a violation. It just means the AHJ has to approve it per 110.2.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Until the manufactures are required to provide a complete set of all listing and labeling instructions with every product there is no reason to expect an installer to use anything more than common sense when installing a product.
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