I think I should fill out a energized work permit for all hot work!!!! With that said I'm catching flack from our electric shop when it come to working on 120 volt circuits. The electric shop thinks it overkill to get a energized electrcial work permit to install a breaker in a 120v volt panel. The shop is content to work 120V panels hot as long as they wear the proper PPE. I think 70e is clear, either shut it off or fill out the work permit. Am I missing some thing here? How do other handle 120 volt circuits.
Energized electrical work permit
- Thread starter cornbread
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Logan, Utah
To change out a 120 volt breaker in a panel you must put the panel in an electrically safe work condition. If you meet one of the justifications for changing a breaker live then you must fill out a hot work permit prior to performing the work. NFPA 70E 2009 section 130.1 has this information.
Chris
Chris
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
nobody wants to document how much avoidable hot work is done..... :roll:
now, if something icky happens, and you were wearing appropriate ppe, so
there wasn't any injury that a change of underwear wouldn't fix, but let's say,
you dump a panel that feeds the fileserver.....
i'm gonna bet that you aregoing to be out there all alone on this... as the guy who didn't bother to pull
a permit, violated written policy, blah, blah, blah....
the short version is, you're screwed either way....
zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
raider is right on here, if >50V you must have justification to do it hot, and if it can be justified, you need an EEWP.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
I agree! Keep doing it the way you are doing it and they will either get someone else to do it or do it the correct way by having you LOTO the panelboard. Be sure to keep a copy of the work permits and use the correct PPE. If it continues, I am sure that OSHA would be interested in the situation. :smile:
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
The problem is that if this is service equipment you can't kill the line side without getting the utility involved. I don't see that happing for a breaker installation. I did submit a proposal that would require a line side compartment for service equipment for this very reason. With a line side barrier you would be able to turn off the main breaker and work on the load side. This design is already required by the Canadian Electrical Code.
All good points. I find it ironic that the electricians are having more of problem with shutting off equipment than the management. I kind of see their point, we are a major chemical plant and shutting down a 120 volt panel and the associated production loss could cost us $50K or more....I know you can't put a price on safety.
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Don,
That was the subject of one of my very first posts here. I'm very glad you've submitted the change. There are a lot of electricians (myself included) who are not going to make a 4 hour project out of calling the utility to drop and reconnect the service to change out a 120/240V plug-in breaker. At least I've learned thru this forum about PPE and now use it, always.
Before I get flamed, I'm a one-man shop so no one at risk but me.
Mark
- Location
- Massachusetts
That entire line of thinking is wrong in my opinion.
You don't get the option of just choosing to work it hot.
Proper PPE or not 70e only allows working hot if it is necessary. 'Necessary' is not the same thing as 'more convenient'
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Unfortunately in the real world this is the biggest issue. Contractor A wants to charge $5000 for the breaker replacement following all of the safety rules. Contract B will do it energized for $1000. Building management likes contractor B's plan better. Right or wrong there are probably many electricians who have no problem changing a CB in an energized panel. In fact for guys that have been around a long time they can think back to when it was really part of the job requirement.
zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
Well that is on the owner then, if something were to happen they will be in deep doo doo with OSHA. Companies are required to follw 70E and OSHA practices, and contractors working on thier property are thier responsibility, even if they are the "low bidder".
I have seen many companies require pre qualification of contractors requiring proof of 70E training, documentation, ESWPs, and qualification before even being allowed to bid a job or step foot on site.
This is mainly for the big companies right now and varies by region, but eventually it will become common practice.
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
I don't agree that this will become common practice for smaller companies. If you are a small restaurant or shop, you're not ever going to be knowledgeable in all aspects of construction to hire a contractor you are sure follows all the safety rules (nor should you be). If I own a small store and I hire an electrical contractor who is properly licensed and insured, then I've done my part. If that contractor does not follow the law, that's his problem (not mine).
Just my opinion,
Mark
The economic concerns are valid. Again ...I know you can't put a price on safety ..however when our plant is competing for futurte growth with our overseas counter parts and we have to concern ourself with doing our job as safetly as possible along with economic concens. Our plants overseas have a unfair advantage as that they do not follow the same rules. Given we just had a recent work force reduction everyone is on pins and needles trying to reduce cost to avoid future cutbacks. Given the US rule are the US rule, we have to follow them, we are trying our best thru scheduleing and other means to avoid as many hot work as we can..but at time it seems our backs are against the wall. The only solution I see it to continue to purchase lotto ticket!!!
- Status