Energy Controllers?

[The Iceman]

I?m looking for some information on these energy controller boxes that I have been seeing on electrical panels lately. The manufacturers clam that they reduce consumption by using patented power factor optimization. I have seen the demonstrations and talked with sales reps but still don?t really understand how they save people money on their electric bills. Can anyone elaborate on this subject? Are these boxes for real?

 

[mcclary's electrical]

I?m looking for some information on these energy controller boxes that I have been seeing on electrical panels lately. The manufacturers clam that they reduce consumption by using patented power factor optimization. I have seen the demonstrations and talked with sales reps but still don?t really understand how they save people money on their electric bills. Can anyone elaborate on this subject? Are these boxes for real?

They don't, it's a scam.

 

[scottam99]

Just another way to seperate people from their money. I had a customer who paid $4100.00 for 2 of them. After 4 months he realized a savings of
-$4100.00 the cost for the KVAR monitor. Power companies charge virtually all residential customers as well as smalll commercial customers based KWH usage not KVAR. Look up KVAR Scams there's a lot of information regarding this. Also don't be mislead by the UL listing they mention. That just means it's safe. You won't find an Energy Star rating or consumer report on them either because there is no value what so ever...

 

[gar]

091008-1026 EST

The Iceman:

Describe the devices you are seeing. You indicate power factor optimization. This implies a capacitor because of the likelihood of a residential application. Note: synchronous motors can be used for power factor correction, but these would only appear in an industrial application.

If various people can provide sufficient evidence of clear fraud, then it should be possible to get attorney generals of states to start looking into this problem.

We should be looking for any proof that could be used to prove that customers have been duped.

1. What claims were made verbally or in writing by the seller relating to how the devices work, would save energy and/or money, and payback time.

2. What demonstrations were given to prove to the customer that the device reduces energy consumption.

The typical demonstration I have seen is a small single phase motor with no mechanical load, a current meter (not a power meter), and a switch to insert and remove the the power factor correction device. With the power factor correction device as part of the load the input current drops substantially as is expected. Note: a normal induction motor is at its worst power factor point with no mechanical load.

What really happens when the power factor correction capacitor is added to the circuit is no change whatever from the motor terminals to the motor load, in other words no change in the power input to the motor, but the capacitor itself actually adds power loss to the combination due to the small losses within the capacitor. It may require high quality instruments to prove this point.

An area that needs consideration is whether there are errors in the normal KWH meters such that adding the power factor correction causes a lower reading. If this occurs, then with a moderately good KWH meter the error should be small, and therefore not worth very much.

I will conjecture that in many homes that a 25% reduction in energy consumption can be achieve without the purchase of any energy conservation equipment simply by turning off loads when they are not needed.

Results of an Experiment:

Motor:
Import drill press with spindle load, but not drilling, 1/2 HP ToYang.

Capacitor:
Sprague AB 1201 21-25 mfd 125 V at least 30 years on shelf. This is an electrolytic capacitor and has higher losses than a good PF correction capacitor. However, the fraud people seem to be selling relatively good quality capacitors.

Power Meter:
Kill-A-Volt

Capacitor alone --- 20 W 153 VA 1.21 A
Motor alone ------- 355 W 690 VA 5.62 A
Cap and motor ---- 374 W 589 VA 4.81 A

Note the capacitor losses added to the motor power consumption. No energy saving.


scottam99:

What was this $4100 device(s)?

.

 

[The Iceman]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess that?s why I couldn?t figure out how this device saves money on peoples electric bills, because it doesn?t.

 

[LarryFine]

I guess that?s why I couldn?t figure out how this device saves money on peoples electric bills, because it doesn?t.

Right. The POCO doesn't charge for what the devices improve (if they do) for residences.

 

[scottam99]

Name of unit

Name of unit

The unit is KVAR Solutions. You'll find all kinds of info for it online as well as "Testimonials"
One of the tactics used was to put an ammeter on the feeder wires and turn on the breaker with the KVAR on it. Showing a drop of approx. 20 amps. ( False Amps are not energy saved) They also tried to say that another 8 to 10 amps was saved on the cooling units. Since they said the whole service was utilizing the KVAR I asked how they could take another deduction for something on the same service. (No Answer) I then asked if their system somehow defies the law of physics which states energy can not be created or destroyed. ( Once again No Answer)
Once I proved their claims to be false the response to the purchaser was to keep the monitor on for another 2 months, money back guarrantee still in force. If not happy they would refund the price of the unit. Of course they will still be charging for the installation. I'm waiting to see how much that is!!!!

 

[gar]

091009-0730 EST

scottam99:

Thanks.

The KVAR Solutions device is obviously two capacitors plus transient limiting stuff. In their specifications I found a statement of power loss of 0.5 W/KVAR. This is a good quality capacitor from the dissipation point of view. Probably metalized polypropylene. No indication of the capacitance of each different model, or any indication of each model's KVAR rating.

The testimonials are really flaky.

For 5 A at 120 V one needs about 110 mfd. This would be about 0.6 KVAR

.

 

[XYZVector]

Kvar b.s.

Kvar b.s.

Yeah it does what it says but most residential customers the KVAR is assumed. So it's not measured. Not like customers are running large 480 motors with low loading, on them. Plus most household motors are single phase and require start caps to run so KVAR is B.S. on a residential electrical system. I knew a co worker that got suckered into this scam, and ended up laughing at him when none of the savings were realized.

 

[SAC]

The typical issue with these products is that the POCO doesn't charge residential for poor power factor, so there is no billing savings to the consumer if they do correct power factor. Furthermore, there is generally one power factor corrector for the dwelling, at the point of service entrance. Even if the "one size fits all" application of the power factor correction device works to the fullest extent, the savings to the resident is the reduction in loss in the conductors between the power factor correction device and the meter - which is quite insignificant. There is little to no savings between the correcting device and the reactive loads in the dwelling - providing little or no reduction in loss in remainder of the wiring of the dwelling. A typical residence with heavy electrical use will experience large swings in power factor as loads alternate between reactive and resistive loads - something these devices don't typically account for (they would need to dynamically switch in and out correcting components as the load reactance changed). Also, many typical large household energy users - ranges, dryers, and water heaters have nearly 100% power factor, so there is no savings to be had. On the other hand, the installation of such devices may produce a "placebo effect", where the residents look to find savings in order to justify the expenditure. They may attribute savings due to other energy reduction measures (such as turning loads off) to be a result of the device.