ENGINEERING CATEGORIES - What Can They Certify

[mtnelect]

Working on a HVAC inspection, where the contractor cut several roofs supports to install an attic HVAC system. The AHJ requested an engineer stamped plans to correct the mistreatment of the structure. The homeowner hired a "Professional Engineer" who provided a set of plans. Can this classification of engineer perform this function ?

 

[petersonra]

A professional engineer will in most cases have a specialty such as electrical or structural. I don't know if it is still true, but used to be a PE in at least some states could stamp any kind of design he wanted to without regard to what his specialty was. Sort of like any MD can practice any kind of medicine he wants.

 

[zbang]

Of course, assuming they're a structural or civil Professional Engineer, that's what PE's do. Just like an electrical PE can draw up and stamp plans for electrical installations.

 

[jim dungar]

A professional engineer will in most cases have a specialty such as electrical or structural. I don't know if it is still true, but used to be a PE in at least some states could stamp any kind of design he wanted to without regard to what his specialty was. Sort of like any MD can practice any kind of medicine he wants.

But all states have some type of language that says Professional Engineers should only practice within their area of expertise/training.

 

[GoldDigger]

But all states have some type of language that says Professional Engineers should only practice within their area of expertise/training.

And also, in AFAIK all states, a person with nothing but an Engineering degree in a particular specialty cannot sign design drawings. In most states they cannot advertise and offer engineering advice to the public.
There have even been a few cases where a state agency has tried to sanction a non-PE for simply saying publicly that their in-house engineers have screwed up.

 

[Speedskater]

Doesn't a Professional Engineer assume legal liability for designs that they OK?

 

[gadfly56]

Doesn't a Professional Engineer assume legal liability for designs that they OK?

In the end, yes. That's what E&O (Errors and Omissions) policies are for. You will find that the drawings will be liberally sprinkled with statements to the effect that "contractor shall provide a code-compliant installation suitable for the purpose" in order to shift as much of the liability to the contractor.

 

[gadfly56]

But all states have some type of language that says Professional Engineers should only practice within their area of expertise/training.

NJ does not restrict your practice, even though you take your Principles and Practices exam in a particular field, but makes it clear that the onus is on the practitioner to stay in his or her lane. New Hampshire is freaky anal about it, and in order to practice outside your exam specialty requires another 4 years of almost exclusive experience in the new field and another exam. Whereupon you are no longer allowed to practice in your old field. At least, that's the way I read it.

 

[JoeStillman]

There are two 8-hour exams you have to take to be able to legally call yourself a Professional Engineer. The first is called the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) and it's the same for all branches - you have to answer questions related to basic things like strength of materials, AC & DC circuits, fluid dynamics and so on.

The second is the actual Professional Engineering (PE) exam. This is the one specific to your chosen field, with only a couple of topics common to them all, like ethics and engineering economics. In many states, you are not allowed to take the PE exam until 4 years after you passed the FE exam. During that period, your work has to be supervised by a Professional Engineer, and your supervisor and four other people have to attest to your work when you apply to take the test.

After you pass the exam, you are allowed to buy a crimp-seal and a rubber stamp. The seal is round so it can serve as a bulls-eye when your clients aims are turned to litigation.

 

[jim dungar]

In the end, yes. That's what E&O (Errors and Omissions) policies are for. You will find that the drawings will be liberally sprinkled with statements to the effect that "contractor shall provide a code-compliant installation suitable for the purpose" in order to shift as much of the liability to the contractor.

That statement exists partially because it is hard for a remote engineer to know all of the 'shirt pocket' rules, local/city requirements, or the contractor's choices allowed by the bid documents, such as raceway selection. Then there is the value engineering that also goes on.

 

[dkarst]

There are two 8-hour exams you have to take to be able to legally call yourself a Professional Engineer. The first is called the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) and it's the same for all branches - you have to answer questions related to basic things like strength of materials, AC & DC circuits, fluid dynamics and so on.

The second is the actual Professional Engineering (PE) exam. This is the one specific to your chosen field, with only a couple of topics common to them all, like ethics and engineering economics. In many states, you are not allowed to take the PE exam until 4 years after you passed the FE exam. During that period, your work has to be supervised by a Professional Engineer, and your supervisor and four other people have to attest to your work when you apply to take the test.

After you pass the exam, you are allowed to buy a crimp-seal and a rubber stamp. The seal is round so it can serve as a bulls-eye when your clients aims are turned to litigation.

Joe, the FE exam used to be "one exam for all engineers" as you noted.... but now there are 7 different FE exams you must choose and sit for such as Electrical and Computer, Civil, Mechanical, Chemical etc. In the end, the Electrical FE exam has less statics, strength of materials and more electrical theory/practice than in the "old days". Opinions vary widely on whether this change is good or bad.

 

[gadfly56]

Joe, the FE exam used to be "one exam for all engineers" as you noted.... but now there are 7 different FE exams you must choose and sit for such as Electrical and Computer, Civil, Mechanical, Chemical etc. In the end, the Electrical FE exam has less statics, strength of materials and more electrical theory/practice than in the "old days". Opinions vary widely on whether this change is good or bad.

I had no idea there had been that much change. Is that just Minnesota or is it nationwide? NCEE is the entity that handled this back in my day.

 

[dkarst]

All states use still use NCEES so there really isn't any difference in test from state/state. In addition to changes in the FE exam, there have been changes to PE exam. Back in old (my) times, there was one electrical PE exam and you could choose to work 4 problems in AM and 4 in PM... then it migrated to a "depth and breadth" format where all electrical took same morning and you chose a depth topic for afternoon.

The current state of electrical exam is you choose either 1. Power 2. Electronics Controls and Communication or 3. Computer and your exam is focused on whichever you choose. Another recent change from the old days is even for PE exam, there is a supplied reference manual so no longer lugging a suitcase full of textbooks to the exam and it is taken on a computer rather than paper/pencil.

I'm sure you're aware but for anyone else following along, the exam specifications etc. are available here... https://ncees.org/exams/

 

[tortuga]

Its been a while since I did any work in CA but you can find the laws here:

https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pe_act.pdf

They define the practice of Electrical, Mechanical and Structural (Civil) engineering.
Typically a Civil Engineer's stamp is needed for structural stuff like a tower footing, and the EE stamps the electrical drawings.

 

[jaggedben]

"Professional Engineer" is like 'Licensed Contractor.' Neither tells you what type of license they have. California recognizes 25 different types of engineers.

 

[mtnelect]

Did a search on Department of Consumer Affairs - California Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists.

This particular Professional Engineer is a Civil Engineer, issued December 15, 2016. License Status: Clear.

So, he/she is qualified in my inspection to do structural work.

And, if I wanted to, design my own home without being a licensed engineer. Kind of like wiring your own home without being a licensed electrician. Not a good idea in both cases.

 

[charlie b]

Doesn't a Professional Engineer assume legal liability for designs that they OK?

This is not as well known as I would like to see, but a PE's seal and signature say nothing about code compliance, adherence to the client's requirements, constructability of the design, accuracy of the calculations, or anything else that is related in any way to, "this is good stuff." The PE does not "OK" the design. I would not issue a design package unless I believed all these things were done correctly. But that is not what my seal and signature convey to the world.

A PE's seal and signature say one thing and one thing only: "This work was done by me or under my supervision."

If something does go wrong, the PE will not be able to weasel out of responsibility by claiming someone else did the work and, "All I was asked to do was to review it." So yes, it is largely about liability.

 

[tortuga]

And, if I wanted to, design my own home without being a licensed engineer. Kind of like wiring your own home without being a licensed electrician. Not a good idea in both cases.

Years ago I rebuilt my garage as a garage/shop and to get a permit I had to have an engineer go over the plans and add some stuff about footing and beams and roof, but he did not need to design the whole thing.
In Oregon if the drawings are stamped by an engineer the plans reviewer checks them for code then when permit is issued inspector goes by the drawings and you need the engineer to sign off on any changes to stamped pages.
One of the things the engineer had to do for my shop was the rafters and collar ties.
The stamped prints specified 'common nails' for the collar ties. My framer friend that was helping me had a nail gun that only shot 'box nails' so I checked with the inspector if box nails were ok he said check with engineer, engineer said no, so we hand nailed all the collar ties.
That was a long day, and my framer friend thought it was a wast of time, probably nobody would have caught it.

 

[gadfly56]

Years ago I rebuilt my garage as a garage/shop and to get a permit I had to have an engineer go over the plans and add some stuff about footing and beams and roof, but he did not need to design the whole thing.
In Oregon if the drawings are stamped by an engineer the plans reviewer checks them for code then when permit is issued inspector goes by the drawings and you need the engineer to sign off on any changes to stamped pages.
One of the things the engineer had to do for my shop was the rafters and collar ties.
The stamped prints specified 'common nails' for the collar ties. My framer friend that was helping me had a nail gun that only shot 'box nails' so I checked with the inspector if box nails were ok he said check with engineer, engineer said no, so we hand nailed all the collar ties.
That was a long day, and my framer friend thought it was a wast of time, probably nobody would have caught it.

Box nails have a smaller shank than common nails and therefore cannot carry the same load for the same nailing pattern.

 

[Jraef]

Years ago I added a 2nd story onto my house, and the contractor that I hired for the framing used a PE to stamp the drawings. A year later, I added a deck off the 2nd story myself and although the inspector never asked me for a PE stamped drawing beforehand, he wanted it at the Final... So I went back to the PE that had signed my main house drawings and he came out to take a look. He said I over built it, but he was unwilling to sign anything, because of the liability insurance implications since he didn't actually witness my footings (6ft deep 18" dia. Sonotubes filled with concrete and rebar to 1ft above grade...). I finally got him to write a letter saying "From what I could observe, the structural design is more than adequate", and the AHJ accepted that (the AHJ had seen my footings before I poured). Whew...