Engineers and Egos

[ivsenroute]

I have not had any major problems dealing with engineers until this past week. It was a structural engineer, not an electrical engineer but the question is more of a broad question that includes electrical engineers.

In this case, I rejected a sealed drawing from an engineer on a structural repair because it did not meet the design criteria of the IBC. He was livid and is under the impression that his seal forces me to accept it.

After he made changes and resubmitted a better design, I rejected it again because he made a mistake and was lacking specs on the LVL's that he specified. Don't even ask what happened next.

So the question is when dealing with electrical engineers, for those who do; do you question them when there is a problem or just play dumb and do what they specify?

What kind of reception do you get when questioning engineers?

 

[quogueelectric]

I usually fight with them and when I am begging them to change the contacts on a piece of machinery because the logic is reversed due to mechanical reasons. It usually goes something like this .
I am begging you to give me 5 minutes to reverse logic before 6 of us rip these machines entirely apart and end up with the same result 2 days later. This has always worked for me but you need a crowd of witnesses and you had better be right.
The engineer will mutter for days about contact position in a box on the shelf. Thats how I like to do it.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I am in the process of electrical inspections for a large healthcare facility.
I had quite a few questions about the engineering of the installation for some existing portions of the different electrical rooms. I asked the engineer to provide a letter for his design. I received the letter and did not accept it, as I thought it was very vague in response. The Healthcare facility decided to bring in a 3rd party testing company, as this process I was involved in with the engineer was holding up more than one project. The 3rd party testing company spent 10 days testing. Their results confirmed my suspicions, and went even further in their results, than I or the healthcare facility had anticipated.


Needless to say, there is another engineering company on the property designing the necessary changes.

The cool part is, that I got to witness the testing being performed over a period while the 3rd party was there.

 

[quogueelectric]

I believe that engineers are subject to the same buisness conditions that contractors are. You dont need everyone to be a rocket engineer.

So some ecs hire day laborors and aprentices and other minimally trained individuals and try to finish the job. Some Engineering firms may have some engineers right out of college that are minimally paid and they give them a set of prints to design a system for and we will work out the bugs later.

You get what you pay for if you are smart or lucky. The fat cats are out hitting the links with clients wondering what is taking that kid so long.

 

[BAHTAH]

Engineering

Engineering

This is a very interesting profession. It is the only place I know where you spend years and years learning more and more about less and less, until you know practically everything about nothing. The best Electrical Engineers I know have come from the field. I have also found throught the years that working with the local Engineers is much better than just looking for mistakes without solutions. This industry is constantly changing and working together can bring mutual respect to both the Engineer and the Contractor.

 

[billdozier]

I personaly feel that an ee should have to spend some time in the field. to fully understand what we have to go through. In order to make there sounds good on papers ideas work

 

[LarryFine]

I personaly feel that an ee should have to spend some time in the field. to fully understand what we have to go through. In order to make there sounds good on papers ideas work

The same has been said about architects. They sometimes make designs that are almost impossible to build. They seem to be unable to think three-dimensionally, which doesn't make sense.

 

[Lcdrwalker]

The dealings that I have had with engineers have been very cordial. Once an error is pointed out with substantiating reference, the EE is willing to make the necessary changes. As it was pointed out, there has to be some mutual respect. As of late though, I have found that mistakes are not the problem. The problem is incomplete plans. The EC is left to do load calcs, conduit and box fill, short circuit calcs voltage drop and these are to just name a few.

I will also agree with billdozier. I believe taht every MEP curiculum should mandate at least one year in the field in that area of disiplin.

 

[Greg Swartz]

Well, I certainly understand the idea of having at least 1 year in the field.

After nearly 17 years in the field, I finished my EE.

But I will tell you that when I tell a EE he is wrong... well, things don't go well.

Maybe it's that Gyriene attitude, maybe I just rub them the wrong way... but as soon as I say anything that even implies the engineer could be even slightly misguided... well, the walls start coming up.

The problem is, that I have been going to school for the last 6 years, and each term, I understood the engineers more... (that worries me) I understood their thinking... I understood their flaws... I understood the flaws in their thinking... and I was able to backtrack things... and as much as I thought that would help, it did not. It just made the engineer more defensive.

So, now I am learning to design my own... and I'll tell you it is NOT easy. (Not as easy as I thought it would be anyway.) The process can be very tedious, and one mistake in the wrong spot could cost you hours of work.

So, I do understand... but I just don't care: It does not matter who you are... when you are wrong... you are wrong.

 

[petersonra]

The engineer will mutter for days about contact position in a box on the shelf.

A lot of electricians seem to have trouble with this concept. I am not real sure why. It seems pretty basic to me, but I run into the issue all the time.

I used to do some work for a company that had an unusual standard for wiring and setting valve limit switches. I figured it was going to be trouble so I drew it as clear as I could and even put an explanatory note on the drawing. Didn't matter. I got a fax after the EC did the install telling me how they had "fixed" my mistake.

 

[emahler]

as a professional, we question nearly everything done by the engineers...because it's our job...however, when we discover issues, we don't just say "you screwed up"...we work with the engineers to determine whether there is a true problem, and the best solution...

to not do so is wrong...

 

[nakulak]

We've had the good fortune to do some fairly crazy work, along with normal stuff, and I've never really had any bad experiences with engineers (maybe I've been lucky). However, I am always very polite when informing them that they are wrong, and I have never had to refuse to install something because, when I have informed /addressed them in the correct language, being the reasonably intelligent people that they usually are, they have seen the writing on the wall. The correct language is usually something like :

"when preparing to do this portion of the work we were double checking the calculation for ... and were concerned that ... might be inadequate. Please confirm in writing that there are no typographical errors on detail x page x dated x/x/x so that we may commence this portion of the work."

of course, if put in the situation where the engineer was willing to put his butt on the line for a glaring error which would put lives at stake, I imagine that it would be necessary to refuse to do the work; fortunately, I have not yet been in that position. (I have, however, taken architects and especially "designers" to task, as the bad ones make everyone's life miserable (including the client))

 

[drbond24]

I knew my ears were burning for a reason.

Engineers are regular people just like everyone else. Some are OK, some are really good, and some are jerks. It has less to do with the degree and more to do with what that person is like. To say the same thing a different way, if you are dealing with an engineer that is a jerk, that person is just a jerk that happens to be an engineer. There are lots of other jerks that happen to be lawyers, teachers, and yes, even electricians.

Dislike the jerk, not the profession.

 

[macmikeman]

I personaly feel that an ee should have to spend some time in the field. to fully understand what we have to go through. In order to make there sounds good on papers ideas work

Well, I personaly feel that the EE should have to spend at least some time in the field at the sites he is providing the engineering for. I get a bit perturbed when the one line drawing shows a new extension from an existing three phase wye208 volt system, and the actual system on the jobsight sight is single phase 240/120. Stuff like that....:roll:

 

[sparkchaser1961]

I knew my ears were burning for a reason.

Engineers are regular people just like everyone else. Some are OK, some are really good, and some are jerks. It has less to do with the degree and more to do with what that person is like. To say the same thing a different way, if you are dealing with an engineer that is a jerk, that person is just a jerk that happens to be an engineer. There are lots of other jerks that happen to be lawyers, teachers, and yes, even electricians.

Dislike the jerk, not the profession.

Right on! Good post.

 

[DAWGS]

I was filling in for my General Foreman when he was on vacation at a plant that we have steady work at. One of the EE's came up to me and pointed out a conduit drop from the ceiling that had no support and proceeded on how shabby it was, I agreed and told him I was sure it was existing and we did not do the work. He then pointed out some SO cord used as a wiring method to a receptacle. (their maintenance is known for that), and I again told him it wasnt one of our installs. Then the greatest part happened and he pointed out a receptacle and told me "code says" it needs to be ground up. I told him that was not true. After arguing about it he sais he will look it up, I told him if he finds it I will change them out in the whole plant and eat the cost.:wink:

 

[weressl]

Hm.... how about the electricians who decided to rewire 500+ pushbuttons in the field where the only thing need to be changed an incorrectly configured I/O status? Then they went around to spread the news how badly the EE's and ED's have screwed up.

Of course all the documentation needed to be changed.

If we don't talk, such things will occur. If everyone realizes that only cooperation takes us to good overall results, reason will prevail.

 

[charlie b]

He was . . . under the impression that his seal forces me to accept it.

The one and only thing that sealing a document conveys is the assertion that the work was done by, or under the supervision of, the person applying the seal. That does not, by itself, require anyone to accept anything. The question of whether an inspector must accept a document that is sealed by an engineer is one of local laws.

Let me offer a counter example. Suppose I wanted to fill a conduit with wires of several sizes. Suppose that if all the wires were of the largest size, then number of wires would be over the limits shown in the appropriate Annex C table. Suppose I performed a calculation using the individual areas of each conductor, and was able to demonstate that the total area was less than 40% of the internal area of the conduit. Suppose that I signed and sealed that calculation, and included it in the package I sent for your approval. Would you feel compelled to accept my calculation, or would you reject the package on the basis that the set of wire sizes in my design does not appear in Annex C?

 

[charlie b]

The engineer will mutter for days about contact position in a box on the shelf. Thats how I like to do it.

I am not sure I understand this comment. But when I design a control scheme, the symbols I use on the drawing will show the contact in its "shelf state." It does not matter that that particular contact will really be in the other state for 99.9% of its operational life. Is that consistent with how you like to do it?

 

[charlie b]

So the question is when dealing with electrical engineers, for those who do; do you question them when there is a problem or just play dumb and do what they specify?

If I am the one you are dealing with, I want to know if something is not right. Don't do what you know to be wrong, just because there is an engineer's name on the drawing. Don't play dumb; the client that we share (i.e., the owner) deserves to have it done right.

But I do not want you to "fix my mistake." That is because I might have designed something that way on purpose. It might not be wrong, but rather just different than you are accustomed to see. So let's talk about it, let's do that politely, and let's not start off by assigning blame.