Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

[steve66]

I am reviewing construction documents for a new building. Are the electrical drawings required to be signed and sealed by a professional engineer (PE), or can anyone design the electrical service and distribution?

The building will be a mega-store in Illinois. The city has adopted the NEC, and the 2000 International Building Code. The Illinois Department of Professional Regulation has a "Manual for Code Review Officials" that seems to say a PE's signature is required. The International Building Code seems to say that the AHJ can require a PE's signature. However, my boss says he has never heard of anyone requiring a PE's signature.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

My first PE registration was in Illinois. I keep that license current, even though I now live in Washington State and have not worked on an Illinois project for some time. Neither the NEC nor the IBC will tell you what type of project or what type of document does, or does not, require a PE seal. That is a matter for the state, city, or other jurisdiction. If I were to design a ?mega-store? in Washington, I would be required to seal the plans and specifications. The mechanism that brings that requirement into play is a state administrative code that says you can?t build it without a permit, and you can?t get a permit without a PE seal. That said, I once worked for a Design-Build firm (in WA) that was able to design, obtain a permit for, and build many types of facilities, without having the plans sealed by a PE, and without writing specifications. They would obtain a PE seal only when the local jurisdiction required one. I suspect that Illinois would have similar rules.

 

[whiggins]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

The local jurisdiction is NOT the final say on a P.E. stamp. Although the local jurisdiction may not require one for a permit, the State says buildings must be designed by registered individuals and their plans must be sealed and signed. If not, those individuals are practicing engineering without a license and are in violation of State law.

 

[rb]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

The State of Tennessee requires plans for buildings of over 5,000 sq. ft., or over two stories in height,to bear the seal and signature of the design professional responsible for the design. Educational, assembly, and institutional occupancies require a seal and signature regardless of their square footage.

 

[steve66]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

Thanks for the replies. I am sticking to my belief that a PE's signature is required for a building this large and complex. The only problem is that PE's are only supposed to sign drawings prepared under their direct supervision. And the building design and drawings are aready finished. Does this mean they have to start the electrical design of the mega-store over from scratch?

 

[ron]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

steve66,
No need for redesign, unless the design is no good. There are many PE's that will stamp/sign design drawings after the fact for a $/drawing cost.

 

[steve66]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

Ron:

I am sure there are PE's that will stamp the drawings after the fact, but strictly speaking it's aginst state law to do so. Perhaps more important, it defeats the purpose of having a PE do the design.

 

[ron]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

steve66, It is unusual in most engineering firms, although not impossible, for a PE to design the majority or even any of the project. Many times they have an oversee-ers role and offer guidance on the overall topology. The PE simply reviews the actual design at the end.
As long as the PE agrees with the design, and more importantly is willing to accept the liability under their license, I see no foul.

Also, a design may be made under the guidance and supervision of a PE, but submitted without a seal. If the local jurisdiction will accept it, then less liability for the engineer.

PS: I hope you are not looking at one of the designs out of my office.

[ August 18, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: ron ]

 

[roger]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

Steve, if a PE reviews the drawings and edits them if necessary, what would be wrong with stamping them.

If these drawings have to be trashed and a PE draws the exact same per the owners design needs
what's the difference?

Roger

 

[charlie b]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

An engineer who seals a set of drawings that was (1) Designed by someone else, and (2) Designed without his or her brain being involved in the development of the design (this is what is meant by ?under my supervision?), and (3) Completed before he or she sees them for the first time, is in violation of the law. Worse than that, the engineer would have betrayed the public trust, for the safeguarding of the health and safety of the public is our highest duty.

That being said, there is an honorable way out of the problem. An engineer can perform a detailed review of the design, write a report that describes the results of the review, and affix the PE seal on the report.

What is the difference? If you designed it and I sealed it, and if it is wrong, the law does not desire to give me the wiggle room of asserting that ?It?s not my fault, I just did the review.? No quibbling is allowed here. The PE seal says one thing, and that one thing only: ?This work was done by me, or under my supervision.? There is an unmistakable intent in this phrase: ?My brain was involved early enough in the design process to have had a due influence in the outcome.?

Charles E. Beck, P.E.

 

[roger]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

Charlie,

Completed before he or she sees them for the first time

they can't be complete until you have edited and corrected them.

Worse than that, the engineer would have betrayed the public trust, for the safeguarding of the health and safety of the public is our highest duty.

Why, and how do you figure?

Let's take an example, a master electrician and unlimited license holder (who has no illussions that he is anything but an electrician) in his state works with a customer in a design of a factory expansion.

This takes place over a period of 6 months, he contacts and works with SQ,D CH or who ever in the gear set up and the same with lighting reps.

The Electrican just happens to work for a contractor big enough to employ a PE.

After the electrician completes the design he presents it to the PE, who may take 8, 16, 24, 80 hrs reviewing, correcting, and editing (this may take trips to the facility) the drawings before he seals them.

The electrician has a completely different job discription and works for the same company but is not under the supervision of the PE.

Just currious how would you treat this.

If an outside PE were to see these and plagerize them because they were that good, would all be right with the world?

This is what I meant when I asked "what's the difference".

Roger

 

[charlie b]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

Originally posted by roger:They can't be complete until you have edited and corrected them.

Let?s not get too wrapped up in the meaning of the word ?complete.? To my mind, ?under my supervision? means that I knew the work was happening before I was handed a set of ?substantially complete? drawings to review. Furthermore, it means that I had the administrative authority (regardless of whether I chose to exercise that authority) to dictate (i.e., to the designer) the standards and design criteria to be used in the development of the drawings, and to alter the course of the design development.

Why, and how do you figure?

In order to get my first PE license, I had to first demonstrate to the people of Illinois (as represented by the Illinois Department of Professional Regulation) that I possessed the minimum levels of education, knowledge, and experience that are required by state law. It was by virtue of my having met these requirements that the people entrusted me with the privilege of performing design work. To act outside the standards of professional conduct would be a violation of that trust. To seal a drawing that was developed with absolutely no participation on my part in the design development is, in fact, a violation of standards of professional conduct, as you can see from the state law that I quote below..

Just curious how would you treat this?. If an outside PE were to see these and plagiarize them because they were that good, would all be right with the world?

You?re not really talking about plagiarism. You?re talking about deceiving the public into believing that a person who has the minimum levels of education, knowledge, and experience to warrant licensing was the person who performed, or at least supervised, this project. So no, all would not be right with the world.

I now live in WA, and you in NC, but since the original question related to Illinois, I?ll take a quote from 225 ILCS 325/14 of Illinois law (http://www.legis.state.il.us/legislation/ilcs/ch225/ch225act325.htm):
The use of a professional engineer's seal on technical submissions constitutes a representation by the professional engineer that the work has been prepared by or under the personal supervision of the professional engineer or developed in conjunction with the use of accepted engineering standards. The use of the seal further represents that the work has been prepared and administered in accordance with the standards of reasonable professional skill and diligence. It is unlawful to affix one's seal to technical submissions if it masks the true identity of the person who actually exercised direction, control and supervision of the preparation of such work.

 

[iwire]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

Charlie,

You mean to tell me it is not possible for a PE given the time that he deems necessary for a particular job, to go over a set of drawings and determine if the drawings meet the satisfaction of that PE.

And if the PE finds issues and address them, why is that wrong?

Bob

 

[steve66]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

Charlie:

Do you happen to know which chapter and act of the Illinois Professional Engineering act actually requires a engineer's signature? I read the entire act (although rather quickly) and all I found was:

(225 ILCS 325/15)
Sec. 15. Technical submissions.....
All technical submissions intended for use in construction in the State of Illinois shall be prepared and administered in accordance with standards of reasonable professional skill and diligence. Care shall be taken to reflect the requirements of State statutes and, where
applicable, county and municipal ordinances in such documents. In recognition that professional engineers are licensed for the protection of the public health, safety and welfare, documents shall be of such quality and scope, and be so administered as to conform to professional standards.
(Source: P.A. 91-92, eff. 1-1-00; 92-145, eff. 1-1-02.)


Steve

 

[charlie b]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

Originally posted by steve66:Do you happen to know which chapter and act of the Illinois Professional Engineering act actually requires a engineer's signature?

Look two paragraphs up from the paragraph that you quoted. It says, ?All technical submissions prepared by or under the personal supervision of a professional engineer shall bear that professional engineer's seal, signature, and license expiration date. The licensee's written signature and date of signing, along with the date of license expiration, shall be placed adjacent to the seal.?

 

[charlie b]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

Originally posted by iwire:You mean to tell me it is not possible for a PE given the time that he deems necessary for a particular job, to go over a set of drawings and determine if the drawings meet the satisfaction of that PE. And if the PE finds issues and address them, why is that wrong?

It?s not just a matter of having the right answer. It?s a matter of assuring the public that the work was performed under the ?responsible charge? of a person who has the education, knowledge, and experience to discern what the right answer should be.

Consider the question, ?How much is 3 plus 5 plus 2?? Suppose Person 1, an accountant, gives you the following answer: ?Well, 3 plus 5 is 8, and if you add 2 more you get 10.? Suppose Person 2, a cook, gives you the following answer: ?Well, 3 times 5 is 12 and if you subtract 3 more you get 10.? Both persons gave you the same (right) answer. But would you trust both persons equally with your next math question?

If your choice of a new home had come down to two similar houses, and if you discovered that one was built by a licensed contractor and the other by an unlicensed DIY?er, but that both passed the building inspection, would you feel equally comfortable about moving your family into either house?

The public has a right to take comfort from knowing that the places in which they live and work have been designed and built by people who are licensed to do the work. The public would lose that comfort level if the law were to allow unlicensed work to be masked as having been done by licensed persons. Every PE has to answer not only to the law, but also to his or her own conscience. How far a design project can progress without the PE?s being involved before the PE can no longer take responsibility for the project may come down to the person?s own conscience.

 

[iwire]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

Charlie thanks for the answer, you certainly have some good points to think about.

?How much is 3 plus 5 plus 2?? LOL and I got your point.

Bob

 

[richanton]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

I practice engineering in new York and New Jersey. In my firm, people come and go. It is not unusual for a project to be started and the engineer involved in the design leaves just before the PE seal is required. What happens is the new engineer who will end up sealing the drawings does a complete review to his satisfaction and then becomes the responsible design engineer. He will then have supervisional authority on that project for the duration of the construction of the project. I think that the key to the legality is the taking on of the responsibility for that project.

 

[lady sparks lover]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

I don't know if I agree...

I'm an EIT, until take my test for the PE next year, and all my supervisor (the PE) does is review my drawings, then makes the final check. My point is..

It's in the code of ethics...if you are a licensed engineer can view and correct work, but he/she assumes responsibility with their license's number on the drawings. I think it's legal, but it's just a matter of not stamp just for money, because someone else doesn't have a licenses.

JMO

Lady

 

[froggyb20]

Re: Engineers Seal and Signature Required in Illinois

I may not be a professional engineer (not even graduated yet), but this conversation interests me in that it involves a discussion of ethics. Charlie, I believe what you said was absolutely correct. You have an infallible argument along the lines of ethical professional engineering. I think the disconnect occurs when real life meets with regulations and theory. There is a gray area where the rules aren't followed verbatim, but the publics trust isn't violated because of the diligence of the involved parties. You addressed that in one post, suggesting the PE review the plans and seal the review. Is that satisfactory? Are the plans considered approved? Great analogy, by the way (with the cook). I would have never thought of it in that way. Great discussion.