Equipment Ground using the Neutral?

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hardworker

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I came across some work done by an "ole-timer" electrician, that has since passed.

I found a receptacle outlet in a commercial building, 120vt, 20amp circuit, awg12, emt with no equipment ground. Just black and white conductors. It was installed prior to 1960, so green ground conductors were not in use at that time.

I was told a computer monitor was used in that outlet years ago and it was having problems due to no ground.

I was told the "ole timer" did some work on the outlet to fix the problem.

I found he had tied the neutral (white) not only to the neutral terminal on the outlet, but also looped it to the equipment ground (green) terminal. He tied the neutral to the equipment ground. Keep in mind this outlet was on EMT.

Is there any reasoning behind this? Do you think he fixed the grounding problem for the monitor? To me this is against all principals and codes.

Please give me your thoughts.

I cleaned the whole issue up by running new wiring.
 
hardworker said:
I came across some work done by an "ole-timer" electrician, that has since passed.

I found a receptacle outlet in a commercial building, 120vt, 20amp circuit, awg12, emt with no equipment ground. Just black and white conductors. It was installed prior to 1960, so green ground conductors were not in use at that time.

I was told a computer monitor was used in that outlet years ago and it was having problems due to no ground.

I was told the "ole timer" did some work on the outlet to fix the problem.

I found he had tied the neutral (white) not only to the neutral terminal on the outlet, but also looped it to the equipment ground (green) terminal. He tied the neutral to the equipment ground. Keep in mind this outlet was on EMT.

Is there any reasoning behind this? Do you think he fixed the grounding problem for the monitor? To me this is against all principals and codes.

Please give me your thoughts.

I cleaned the whole issue up by running new wiring.
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Was the EMT continuous and grounded?

If so all he did was make the EMT become a parallel neutral path, and potentially increase risk of voltage between this raceway and other grounded objects because of voltage drop.

Just because he was "ole timer" doesn't mean he was ever taught (and understood) why the neutral and ground need separation beyond the service equipment or first disconnect of SDS. Many old installations you can find this "bootleg" ground on. It is usually on two wire NM cable and not on raceway systems though, maybe he had no idea that metal raceways are a grounding method.
 
Yes, it was a continuous and grounded emt.

What was this guy thinking? I know he was trying to achieve a ground for the monitor but I don't get it.
 
Old timers

Old timers

Old timer, like me are sometimes just old, not wise.
Some old timers learned sumthin years ago and don't cotton to bein' corrected or educated
Some old timers are just dead wrong


Same applies to young whippersnappers
 
hardworker said:
I came across some work done by an "ole-timer" electrician, that has since passed.

I found a receptacle outlet in a commercial building, 120vt, 20amp circuit, awg12, emt with no equipment ground. Just black and white conductors. It was installed prior to 1960, so green ground conductors were not in use at that time.

I was told a computer monitor was used in that outlet years ago and it was having problems due to no ground.

I was told the "ole timer" did some work on the outlet to fix the problem.

I found he had tied the neutral (white) not only to the neutral terminal on the outlet, but also looped it to the equipment ground (green) terminal. He tied the neutral to the equipment ground. Keep in mind this outlet was on EMT.

Is there any reasoning behind this? Do you think he fixed the grounding problem for the monitor? To me this is against all principals and codes.

Please give me your thoughts.

I cleaned the whole issue up by running new wiring.
Click to expand...

The receptacle was likely grounded before the old geezer touched it.
 
fmtjfw said:
Old timer, like me are sometimes just old, not wise.
Some old timers learned sumthin years ago and don't cotton to bein' corrected or educated
Some old timers are just dead wrong


Same applies to young whippersnappers
Click to expand...
Especially when they were mentored by the old timer:happyyes:

How did everyone in between become so smart?:huh:
 
Jumping the neutral to the equipment ground screw was very common. Some still do it. We worked pretty hard doing running large GECs and bonding racks in a telephone switch room years ago. When I mentonednto the engineer in charge that almost all of the General purpose recepts in the building were grounded in this fashion, he got a really blank look on his as if to say. "and your point is? ". I didn't push it.
 
My Grandpa once told me something that I have tried to remember. If it wasn?t for ?old timers? there wouldn?t be any ?young whippersnappers?

I suppose this would be true as they were our ancestors that donated the one thing required to form us into babies. :thumbsup:

Back to the subject at hand. It wasn?t too long ago that I did an evaluation on a wiring system where the home inspector had found open grounds. He recommended the neutral be bonded to the green screw of the receptacle to cure this problem. This HI was less than thirty so based on this I would say that this method is still escalating in this day and time.

Proud to let it be known that I have been blessed with 62 years on this earth. Just a comment from one young whippersnapper to another and to inform those old timers that there is another on their way to becoming one. :p
 
Scary things! "Grandfathered" licenses! (Random thoughts)

Scary things! "Grandfathered" licenses! (Random thoughts)

I'm always been upset by the concept of "grandfathering" into a license.:rant: Most of the people I've met with grandfathered licenses are very set in their ways and often very wrong. I think grandfathering supports an attitude that "I've had so much experience that I know it all, and the state has confirmed that by letting me slide on the test."

I got all my licenses the hard way, by studying and passing the tests. I may be 65, but I'm always interested in learning. I spend time and money on continuing education. I learn a little each time I do something new, or make a mistake that someone catches.:slaphead:

When I stop learning I should quit, either because my brain is ossified, or the work is just boring.

And I understand I am soon to become a first-time grandfather,:thumbsup: and I didn't have to pass a test to be that, but that's totally off topic.
 
fmtjfw said:
I'm always been upset by the concept of "grandfathering" into a license.:rant: Most of the people I've met with grandfathered licenses are very set in their ways and often very wrong. I think grandfathering supports an attitude that "I've had so much experience that I know it all, and the state has confirmed that by letting me slide on the test."

I got all my licenses the hard way, by studying and passing the tests. I may be 65, but I'm always interested in learning. I spend time and money on continuing education. I learn a little each time I do something new, or make a mistake that someone catches.:slaphead:

When I stop learning I should quit, either because my brain is ossified, or the work is just boring.

And I understand I am soon to become a first-time grandfather,:thumbsup: and I didn't have to pass a test to be that, but that's totally off topic.
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Your opinion is understandable. Now lets say you have been doing something for 25 or more years and they change a law that makes you ineligible to do what you have been doing for so long? Giving you a time period in which you can still operate but must work on becoming licensed, certified, etc. may be fair, but many do not want to change their ways either when they have been doing something for so long.
 
Gentlemen let?s not forget about that old fellow that has done nothing else for his entire life and is pretty darn good at what he is doing that does not have the ability to spell their own name.

During the time period of a lot of the ?grandfathered? trades people this held true for a good many of them.
 
I have no problem with, when licensing is established, to give proper notice, say a year or so, to those why have been in the trade that they need to prepare for a test. The problem I'm complaining about is those who are set in their ways, especially in ways that were either never correct or are hopelessly out of date.

Gee, I can remember when the NEC had different conduit capacity for new and rework. But I understand that is now outmoded.
 
Lets not forget that these "grandfathered" license holders still have to pass inspections to whatever code is current. If they can do that on a consistant basis maybe they actually do know what they are doing.
 
The situation I was in with the Grandfathered Master was effectively non-inspected. Public School exempt from City inspections, only "inspectors" were about 25 State Fire Marshals for the whole state and electrical inspections just one of the things on their plate.
 
fmtjfw said:
The situation I was in with the Grandfathered Master was effectively non-inspected. Public School exempt from City inspections, only "inspectors" were about 25 State Fire Marshals for the whole state and electrical inspections just one of the things on their plate.
Click to expand...

Sounds like more of a potential problem with inspecting and code enforcement than an issue of whether or not the guy with a grandfathered license is competent enough to do the work, proper inspection will still find his mistakes.
 
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