Either i am talking to electricians that simply do not like this process to get an equipment ground or would rather do a re wire to acheive the better money. I understand the fact of well it is just as easy to run/fish new NM cable as it is to run a single third ground wire to make a 2 wire outlet grounded, from the outlet back to the breaker box. If this grounding needs to be done do they just figure an automatic re wire job. Is this a code thing with having an electrician run a single ground to each 2 wire outlet? Does the actual existing hot and neutral wires need to be tested /inspected before a ground wire can be run to each outlet? Just not satisfied with the automatic answer of you need a re wire. Any explanations would be appreciated thank you!
equipment grounding to each outlet
- Thread starter SR343
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- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
So your question is does the NEC permit you to run an external EGC to receptacles that are ungrounded due to the fact that their branch circuit cable does not contain a ground?
Welcome to the forum. :smile:
Welcome to the forum. :smile:
tryinghard
Senior Member
- Location
- California
The electrician should figure the circuit correct; automatically!
A circuit without correct ground fault path is not as incorrect as it is hazardous. Electrical Contractors should be pre-qualified before hiring and they will need to be paid for their risk and services, that?s just business. I can speak for myself in that it starts with the passion for the trade but certainly includes the money.
Not dissin your answer, but I can just imagine how Bennie (God rest his soul) would reply to your post.:smile:
steve
Grounding outlets
Grounding outlets
Thanks all for replys! Thanks for the welcome infinity. Apparently running a single ground wire within a wall to an outlet is a code approved way to get a proper equipment ground . However,i was also told by inspectors this way of getting a proper equitment ground is not used that often at all. A re wire job is done. Which promted one of my questions to either test and/or examine the existing wires first.. I was also made aware if i was to go the GFCI outlet way in an existing 2 wire outlet system GFCI outlets must be put all throughout.
All replys and comments appreciated!
Grounding outlets
Thanks all for replys! Thanks for the welcome infinity. Apparently running a single ground wire within a wall to an outlet is a code approved way to get a proper equipment ground . However,i was also told by inspectors this way of getting a proper equitment ground is not used that often at all. A re wire job is done. Which promted one of my questions to either test and/or examine the existing wires first.. I was also made aware if i was to go the GFCI outlet way in an existing 2 wire outlet system GFCI outlets must be put all throughout.
All replys and comments appreciated!
tryinghard
Senior Member
- Location
- California
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
Remember that anything other than the automatic answer requires figuring time, and time costs money. Very often the 'automatic' answer is the cheapest answer simply because the savings associated with a cheaper answer comes with expensive design costs.
A system that does not include EGCs to the receptacles almost certainly has other deficiencies. For example the circuits may simply be overloaded, insulation will have become brittle with age, etc. So as a very good guess, in addition to fixing the grounding issue, there are almost certainly conductors that need to be replaced anyway, circuits to be added, etc. The analysis to determine which conductors could be salvaged and which need to be replaced is not trivial.
I believe that an electrician who says 'rewire' rather than 'run a new egc' is guessing, but this is a guess that plays the odds correctly. Very likely the cost of figuring out which conductors can be saved plus the cost of running the egc is going to be far more than the cost of simply running new cable.
The best advice I've seen for a less expensive way to deal with these systems is to ignore them. Don't try to upgrade the current system, but instead run entirely new circuits to locations that need them.
-Jon
A system that does not include EGCs to the receptacles almost certainly has other deficiencies. For example the circuits may simply be overloaded, insulation will have become brittle with age, etc. So as a very good guess, in addition to fixing the grounding issue, there are almost certainly conductors that need to be replaced anyway, circuits to be added, etc. The analysis to determine which conductors could be salvaged and which need to be replaced is not trivial.
I believe that an electrician who says 'rewire' rather than 'run a new egc' is guessing, but this is a guess that plays the odds correctly. Very likely the cost of figuring out which conductors can be saved plus the cost of running the egc is going to be far more than the cost of simply running new cable.
The best advice I've seen for a less expensive way to deal with these systems is to ignore them. Don't try to upgrade the current system, but instead run entirely new circuits to locations that need them.
-Jon
grounding to all outlets
grounding to all outlets
Thanks for the reply Winnie or to anybody that reads this. Sure i would love to do a re wire. Unfortunately,it is not in the affordability cards right now. So, what i am doing at this point is the g/looking for the best and safest way to ground the outlets. I have learned GFCI outlets protect,but they do not necessarily protect devices(tv,stereo,dvd player,computer etc.) that may be connected to them. It became clear that an equipment ground wire from the outlets back to the breaker box was the way to go. As i mentioned before an inspector said the single ground wire method is code,but not used very often at all. My future plans regarding this include replace circuits as needed on a ASAP basis. Property insurance is really pushing for electrical updates on this older home (4 point inspection they want now) this upgrade can only better premium rates for me (checked into that before this process began) and get rate quotes now from other companys to. Anybody with other thoughts or other electrical ideas regarding this please chime in.
Thanks all
grounding to all outlets
Thanks for the reply Winnie or to anybody that reads this. Sure i would love to do a re wire. Unfortunately,it is not in the affordability cards right now. So, what i am doing at this point is the g/looking for the best and safest way to ground the outlets. I have learned GFCI outlets protect,but they do not necessarily protect devices(tv,stereo,dvd player,computer etc.) that may be connected to them. It became clear that an equipment ground wire from the outlets back to the breaker box was the way to go. As i mentioned before an inspector said the single ground wire method is code,but not used very often at all. My future plans regarding this include replace circuits as needed on a ASAP basis. Property insurance is really pushing for electrical updates on this older home (4 point inspection they want now) this upgrade can only better premium rates for me (checked into that before this process began) and get rate quotes now from other companys to. Anybody with other thoughts or other electrical ideas regarding this please chime in.
Thanks all
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Steve remembers how Bennie would argue that grounding is more dangerous than not grounding. In theory, Bennie had some very good points and I can argue his points; however, Bennie would tend to espouse solid theory with the NEC rules and confuse people who didn't thoroughly understand the NEC style of grounding and bonding. In that vein, he was not helpful. I really enjoyed arguing with him and I think of him often when we discuss grounding and bonding. :smile:
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
The point that I was trying to make is that it is probably _more_ expensive to try running a separate ground wire to the receptacles than to do a complete rewire.
For each receptacle you have the labor of pulling a conductor; this labor is similar to pulling a cable. Of course the single conductor is cheaper than the cable.
Than at each box you have the labor of somehow 'shoehorning' in the ground wire; possibly replacing the box to provide for an additional conductor entrance.
At each box you have the labor of evaluating if the existing conductors are in good shape, and if not, pulling a new cable. (Actually, you would probably do this first, and if the conductors need replacing you would not bother pulling the separate ground.)
The only 'savings' is that instead of pulling a new cable, you are pulling a single conductor. The labor costs are higher because you now have both pulling the conductor and evaluating the old conductors.
Since labor is more expensive than the materials, this approach is more expensive than a complete rewire.
Per my previous post, adding new grounded circuits where necessary is the 'economy' route.
-Jon
How much equipment are you plugging into these outlets that has the 3rd grounding prong on the cord? Grounding the circuit does not help equipment with a two prong plug. A surge suppressor will be more effective with a grounding path, but still mostly for items with 3 prong plugs.
If you're worried about shock, use GFCI's where the risk is highest (and these would most likely be places the current NEC requires GFCI protection).
So I'd run a grounding wire to outlets where you use a surge suppressor, and to ones where you want extra shock protection from faults (typically metal appliances with a 3 prong plug). Use GFCI's on those too.
If you're worried about shock, use GFCI's where the risk is highest (and these would most likely be places the current NEC requires GFCI protection).
So I'd run a grounding wire to outlets where you use a surge suppressor, and to ones where you want extra shock protection from faults (typically metal appliances with a 3 prong plug). Use GFCI's on those too.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I agree 100% with Jon, and this is exactly what I recommend to every call for "grounding my outlets." I ask why, and they say "new computer" or "new A/V system."
Leave the existing 2-wire circuits as they are, supplying the usual 2-wire loads like lamps and clocks, and install new 3-wire circuits only where they're needed.
This has the added benefit of relieving the old, quirky, overloaded original circuits of powering new loads where ampacity, integrity, and grounding are of real value.
See Charlie's post.
Bennie would have loved to argue that point with you.:smile:
steve
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Welcome to the zoo, new guy! :smile:
No, you could use a GFCI breaker, or a GFCi receptacle at the first outlet protecting the rest via its feed-thru terminals.
Added: The difference is the relative labor costs.
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