Estimate

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J

JROD

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I recently gave an estimate for moving a lighting and branch circuit panel board. The homeowner told me that he had been trying to get someone out for weeks. He said that I was the first contractor to show up the date and time promised. As part of an addition to his laundry room, he wanted the panel board moved 10?, the clothes washer and dryer receptacle moved 12? and an additional two new receptacles. I told him that a permit of $50 would be required and a couple of code upgrades would also be required. Being that the guy is retired, I gave him what I felt was a fair estimate of $1,200. He got annoyed at the estimate and said he needed to speak to his wife. I haven?t heard from him even though he had said he would hire me if the estimate was a fair one. A contractor friend of mine from Charlotte said he would have given him a $1,600 estimate and that $1,600 would be more than fair for the job.

I am hoping to get some more opinions.

Thanks
 
Re: Estimate

Are you only moving the panelboard, or is the whole service (meter, mast, etc.) being moved as well? Keep in mind that the service disconnecting means must be fairly close to where it enters the building. 230.70(A)(1) doesn't say how close; that's up to the AHJ. Jurisdictions where I work generally allow 4-5'. If I were to do what you describe here, I'd have to add a disconnect switch, and they can be expensive. Last one I put in was 200A, and my cost for it and the enclosure at the wholesale house came to $350. Ouch.

I don't know the local rates where you are (always a fun topic on this board), but your numbers don't seem out of line to me.
 
Re: Estimate

Thank you for the reply.

Are you only moving the panelboard, or is the whole service (meter, mast, etc.) being moved as well? Keep in mind that the service disconnecting means must be fairly close to where it enters the building.

The requirement was just to move the panelboard.
 
Re: Estimate

Well you did right by saying you need a permit first if you would try to slide this under without then the homeowner could have legit reason to think it was high. But it sounds right to me.
 
Re: Estimate

Speaking as a HO, I can tell you I do not understand at all where the $1200 comes from. It seems like something that should be a 1/2 day project.

Obvciously, there is a lot more to it than what is readily apparent.
 
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Permit- $50.00 for the city fee, another $300 to cover the 3-4 hours in the permit line and the gas driving to city hall and parking meter fee. Panel move- 4-1/2 hours so maybe another $350 for that. Move dryer outlet- $140. Move washer outlet- $100. Drive time to job, and service charge- another $60. Return to job and do inspection- another $100. Now we have $1,100 with no materials, no overhead, no profit and no tax added. I am sure these wouldn't be your particular numbers, but this sounds to me like a $1600 job.
 
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In my area, this would be on the low side, but I am a guy that has to fight for $1200 for a100a panel changeout. Ive got competitors that do this for 750-900. My goal isnt to be the cheapest guy out there, thats the goal of the cheapest guy out there. Tell the guy he can always do it himself since he is so knowledable about how much it should cost. Just moving all those circuits(assuming using old panel as splice point) should about double the price on whatever anybody charges for a panel change. ;)
oops, I just reread and saw the panel was just being moved, not replaced. Still, just as much work as replacement, charge more young man!

[ September 08, 2005, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: blackrd ]
 
Re: Estimate

Originally posted by petersonra:
Speaking as a HO, I can tell you I do not understand at all where the $1200 comes from. It seems like something that should be a 1/2 day project.

Obvciously, there is a lot more to it than what is readily apparent.
Click to expand...
Very true. There are almost always snags that wind up taking a lot of time. Last panel swap I did took about 6.5 hours, and it was a fairly uneventful job. I once had a panel swap take over 12 hours because pretty much everything that could go wrong did.

It's not just a matter of yanking off the old box, putting in a new one, and connecting the old wires in the new panel. Often the new box doesn't fit right, so a new method of mounting has to be devised. Sometimes the wires from the meter pan are too short, so they have to be replaced. Existing conduit (EMT) is not always so easy to line up where it needs to be, especially if there is a lot of it. Often the old wiring is too short, so that requires splices and j-boxes. And the new panel has to be grounded to current code. Last one I did involved fishing #6 wire through a ceiling to get to the water main.

The only way I see a panel swap as a half-day job is under ideal circumstances.
 
Re: Estimate

Here in the Michigan market that would be a very fair price. You are getting a permit and doing the job to code. Sure some hacks can beat that price around here, but there wouldn't be a permit and I'm sure any inspector would find a few violations with the hacks work.
 
Re: Estimate

Makes me glad I can pull my permits over the Internet. Takes five minutes, tops.
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Once I made the mistake of asking the "nice" lady behind the counter Why can't we just do this over the internet? Her reply was "what" brah, then we no mor job. At that point I spent an extra hour waiting for her to return to her counter after she said "I'll be back in just a minute." I have not asked about that possibility since.
 
Re: Estimate

Originally posted by macmikeman:
Permit- $50.00 for the city fee, another $300 to cover the 3-4 hours in the permit line and the gas driving to city hall and parking meter fee. Panel move- 4-1/2 hours so maybe another $350 for that. Move dryer outlet- $140. Move washer outlet- $100. Drive time to job, and service charge- another $60. Return to job and do inspection- another $100. Now we have $1,100 with no materials, no overhead, no profit and no tax added. I am sure these wouldn't be your particular numbers, but this sounds to me like a $1600 job.
Click to expand...
I note that almost 40% of the cost of this project is for permitting and inspection costs. And you guys continue to wonder why people avoid them.

[ September 09, 2005, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
 
Re: Estimate

I had no idea the permit process was so inefficient in Hawaii. Yeah, if the AHJ operates like that, they shouldn't be surprised that people would want to avoid getting a permit.

Internet permits are available to me only in two jurisdictions where I work, but that's where I do almost all of my business. When I've had to pull permits in person, the longest I've had to wait in line has been five minutes.
 
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Actually, we can apply over the internet for a permit. There is a big sign in the building department that tells all about it. It also states very clearly that it will take at least two weeks to process however. :mad:
 
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Each permit takes two weeks to process? Or does it just take two weeks to get you into the system?

It took me a few days to get set up initially, but once I was in the system, I was able to get permits in about five minutes. They even send me a nice PDF of the permit that I can print out and give to the customer if I want.
 
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Each takes two weeks, or more precisely stated , up to two weeks, but you can count on the two weeks. Same thing if you just drop the application in the drop box. If you sit thru the line you can usually get out in one day for residential electrical stuff, but it takes days for a commercial job to go thru. Our city and state workforce is very well organized, if you get my drift. However I will say our electrical inspectors do a really top notch job. Remember, I am anonymous, I am not blowing any smoke here. They are a conscientious bunch and most of em know the code well.
 
Re: Estimate

I have a hard time understanding why a permit would take so long to "process". I pull permits in several municipal jurisdictions, as well as state jurisdiction from time to time, and it's about as pain-free as it can get. An electrical permit (residential) doesn't need plans or prints, so all the AHJ wants to know is how many circuits, what kind of work, etc. They just want to get it into their system. Once there, all they have to do is issue a permit. No one needs to review anything before a permit is issued, so it's not like it should take much time.

At the state level, we have to purchase permits in advance ($25 for a book of 25 permits). But the nice thing is that the permits are pre-numbered, so I can fill one out, write a check, and drop it in the mail. Once it's in the postal system, the permit is considered valid. I've had a few state-inspected jobs where I was done with the work before the inspector had even received the permit.

[ September 10, 2005, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: Estimate

Jeff the answer lies in the politics. Just suffice to say that the persons working in the permit office have absolutely no compelling reason whatsoever to speed it up.
 
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