Estimating Advice

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Good Evening Gents

Im looking for some advice on the best, most efficient training/courses to learn the estimating/bidding process. I just got my Phila master electrical license and sometime in the near future will branch out on my own. I’ve been working for the same company doing commercial work for 15 years and know how to do the installation part of the job but don’t know a whole lot about putting a number to a job. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!!!
 
A course can teach you about the "process" of making a bid: the categories of expense you need to consider. It might even help you come up with a number for materials. Materials are easy. What it can't help you with is coming up with a correct labor hours number.

Give ten contractors a bidding opportunity and you will get ten wildly different labor numbers.

The most likely scenario is you will think you can get the job done faster than reality. Most people will tell you (when starting out) to make your best guess AND THEN DOUBLE IT! You will be that far off. You will forget things that require labor like setup and cleanup.

There are labor hours books you can buy. You won't believe the numbers in there (you will think they are too high) and you will apply a modifier making it a guess again.

The only thing you can do to make sense of it all is to keep track of the labor on every job you do. After a while you will have a database of how long it takes you (and your crew) to do things. Bid according to your database and constantly refine your database.

Don't be afraid to bid high. If you win, you will probably make money. If you lose the bid, it didn't cost you that much. If you bid low and win, you could lose money, perhaps a lot! This could endanger your business.
 
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Give ten contractors a bidding opportunity and you will get ten wildly different labor numbers....

In my experience, 7 of us are going to be pretty close, and the other 3 will be wildly off.

I never went to a course, but probably 10 years ago I bought an estimating book at my local bookstore and went from there.

After years of job tracking, I’ve learned while those labor units used to look high, they’re pretty dang close.

My best advice is to be an excellent plan reader, know the specs, and use what you’ve learned in the field to build proper take-off assemblies.

The hardest part will be learning exactly what your overhead expenses are and applying them to your bid accordingly for how much of that expense will be applied to a particular job.


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Give ten contractors a bidding opportunity and you will get ten wildly different labor numbers.

Not true at all....at least when competing with EC's that have a long reputation and are qualified to do large commercial projects.

They all use a major brand estimating software (Accubid, ConEst, etc)

Estimating in that world is a science and the winner is determined by who gets the best lighting and switchgear quotes

I have been beat by $2000 on a $2 million job
 
I just got my Phila master electrical license and sometime in the near future will branch out on my own. I’ve been working for the same company doing commercial work for 15 years and know how to do the installation part of the job but don’t know a whole lot about putting a number to a job.

Not true at all....at least when competing with EC's that have a long reputation and are qualified to do large commercial projects.

As you can see above, we are definitely not talking about "EC's that have a long reputation and are qualified to do large commercial projects". My advice is based on the Mom & Pop class of EC's who don't all have estimating down to a science and probably don't even own estimating software.
 
As you can see above, we are definitely not talking about "EC's that have a long reputation and are qualified to do large commercial projects". My advice is based on the Mom & Pop class of EC's who don't all have estimating down to a science and probably don't even own estimating software.

Yes and I have seen some pretty big jobs bid by companies that didn't have the slightest idea what they were getting into. Sometimes these jobs even get awarded to these companies that don't have a clue. Doesn't normally end well.
 
As you can see above, we are definitely not talking about "EC's that have a long reputation and are qualified to do large commercial projects". My advice is based on the Mom & Pop class of EC's who don't all have estimating down to a science and probably don't even own estimating software.

Mom and Pop EC's can afford software. It's really cheap considering the accuracy which minimizes risk.

Heck....even if you buy a book of published labor units, which are very close to the software, is cheap.

The science comes in when you apply labor units to the material items....if you can't take off the material needed for any job, you have a huge problem
 
Good Evening Gents

Im looking for some advice on the best, most efficient training/courses to learn the estimating/bidding process. I just got my Phila master electrical license and sometime in the near future will branch out on my own. I’ve been working for the same company doing commercial work for 15 years and know how to do the installation part of the job but don’t know a whole lot about putting a number to a job. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!!!

This is from the perspective of a small fish, $50,000 to $200,000 jobs.

You have the most important part, the ability to walk through the job mentally. After getting the switchgear and fixture quotes, I do the job in my head and break it down into as many small steps as I can.

Putting a price on each step. When I get a total, I tack on a percentage.

When you're starting out you'll probably forget something. I once forgot lift rental, luckily there were some change orders that help bail me out.
 
Some estimating advice from me, for doing Hotel communication work:

-- average distance of your cable runs. Take your longest and shortest distances add them together and divide by 2. Multiplied by the number of drops, and you have how much wire you will need for the job.

-- number of drops equals number of keystones. These can range in price anywhere from about a $1.25 to $7, depending on the manufacturer and rating of the devices. Divide this number by 12, 24, or 48 to figure out how many patch panels and switches you need.

-- each drop also equals one box and mud ring, go multiple cables going to the same box obviously only need one box. 2-gang steel boxes are often used, unless the cable is Free Run, in which case plastic two by four boxes are used. Using adjustable plastic boxes is easier in the long run been trying to nail them on precisely to an often changing wall detail.

-- if you are running conduit, figure two fittings per box if in a riser fashion, one fitting per box for top and bottom floors. average length of conduit to stub out to a hallway runs about 20 ft if using a riser set up, 32' if stubbed out floor by floor.

-- an often-overlooked but fairly expensive portion of the job is fire stopping. putty pads run about $6 a box, tubes of fire stop 12 to $18. You may run through 3 to 6 cases of fire stop for a average size, 100-room, Hotel.

-- also often overlooked is the number of drill bits you are going to tear up on a job. a wood frame building of the above-mentioned size can easily eat $200 worth of drill bits, a concrete building, 500 to $1,500.

-- another frequently overlooked cost of the job is patch cords, coax cables from the wall plates to the TVs, and Oddities the pool phone, which will need a waterproof enclosure. if the phone companies demarc is not in your phone room, you will need a feeder for that.

-- owners will want tons of wireless access points and cameras. run all of the cable for them, even if they do not get installed... Running it after the fact, especially if you have inaccessible ceilings, is a giant pain and much more expensive for the owner

-- the telephones, phone system, cameras, and security system need to be hashed out with the owner. if they have custom placards on the phones, you have to factor in the cost of making those.

-- there are tons of other little things that usually are hashed out with the owner, like sound system, how its zoned, intercom systems and so on.

-- know your local building codes, an ADA requirements.

-- other low voltage, like thermostat wire to the PTAC units, do not make assumptions there either. some of those PTACs require 18/10.

-- labor prices will vary quite a bit depending on if the cables are all in conduit, wood or steel frame building.

-- if your guys are working out of town, will the hotel owner have another nearby hotel for your guys to stay at for free? lodging and per diem expenses, and mileage on vehicles can add up quite a bit.


These are just some of the things to look at doing just the low voltage portion of a small commercial project. Obviously the fire alarm system, main electrical, distribution, security wiring, Etc are all larger parts of the project. the stuff I mentioned can easily run $50,000 + on 100 room size Hotel.
 
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A course can teach you about the "process" of making a bid: the categories of expense you need to consider. It might even help you come up with a number for materials. Materials are easy. What it can't help you with is coming up with a correct labor hours number.

Give ten contractors a bidding opportunity and you will get ten wildly different labor numbers.

The most likely scenario is you will think you can get the job done faster than reality. Most people will tell you (when starting out) to make your best guess AND THEN DOUBLE IT! You will be that far off. You will forget things that require labor like setup and cleanup.

There are labor hours books you can buy. You won't believe the numbers in there (you will think they are too high) and you will apply a modifier making it a guess again.

The only thing you can do to make sense of it all is to keep track of the labor on every job you do. After a while you will have a database of how long it takes you (and your crew) to do things. Bid according to your database and constantly refine your database.

Don't be afraid to bid high. If you win, you will probably make money. If you lose the bid, it didn't cost you that much. If you bid low and win, you could lose money, perhaps a lot! This could endanger your business.

Well said my friend. I second.


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The only thing you can do to make sense of it all is to keep track of the labor on every job you do. After a while you will have a database of how long it takes you

Why would anyone spend years doing this when the industry has spent decades accumulating data that has given us labor units already published?

What you do is keep track of your jobs broken down into the main labor codes, and then adjust for your companies performance
 
Why would anyone spend years doing this when the industry has spent decades accumulating data that has given us labor units already published?

What you do is keep track of your jobs broken down into the main labor codes, and then adjust for your companies performance

In a word, proficiency. If you do all of one type of building like we did, 3 to 4 story hotels, primarily wood framed, you will find that your estimates are a fair clip lower than book rates or estimating software. A lower bid than your competitors gets the contract
 
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