Estimating residential

[kwired]

They want new electrical devices, fixtures, smoke detectors but don't want to spend a fortune ? I wouldn't want this customer.then. You can't work for free & electrical work is not your hobby. What field of employment is the home owner in ? Ask him to work for half of his going rate & see how far that flys.

sounds typical for residential work to me. They usually want to provide all their own devices, and they won't get the needed GFCI's unless maybe there already is one there to replace, and won't get TR receptacles either, the 59 cent ones at big box store are cheaper. Then you are supposed to put them all in for under a couple hundred bucks max even though the job wipes out most of a day.

 

[Joseph mulherin]

Yeah y'all are all right, exactly what I was thinking, its been 17 years since I stepped into a house and it is still the same the only thing that have changed is the codes, still want something for nothing and commercial work is the same, it reminds me why I love industrial. Thanks

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[growler]

Yeah y'all are all right, exactly what I was thinking, its been 17 years since I stepped into a house and it is still the same the only thing that have changed is the codes, still want something for nothing and commercial work is the same, it reminds me why I love industrial. Thanks

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Industrial is better work than residential but when it comes to business it's just the same. It's a gamble but for much higher stakes. There are companies that go broke every day doing all kinds of work.

The good thing about residential is that one or two jobs normally won't put you out of buisness and millions in the red.

When doing residential it's better to work directly for the homeowner and in a house they plan to live in. Service calls and trouble shooting are better money and can lead to bigger jobs such as service up-grades or panel swaps or even whole house rewires.

The first week will not give you any kind of indication of what's out there. If you are not busy and have nothing else to do it's a good idea to bid jobs just to stay in practice and become familiar with material prices (just don't bid cheap).

 

[Strathead]

Industrial is better work than residential but when it comes to business it's just the same. It's a gamble but for much higher stakes. There are companies that go broke every day doing all kinds of work.

The good thing about residential is that one or two jobs normally won't put you out of buisness and millions in the red.

In my opinion, residential is far easier to quantify (estimate) There are so many variables in industrial.

 

[kwired]

In my opinion, residential is far easier to quantify (estimate) There are so many variables in industrial.

Only true if you know what you are estimating. Small projects are more clear, new construction or major renovations sometimes you get a pretty crude floor plan and that is it, no details on electrical and when you start asking questions they find out there is a lot of potential things electrical related that they never even thought about before. If you are not estimating/bidding on same things as competition - it really isn't fair to you, your competition or the owner and often leads to a lot of misunderstandings for whoever ends up being awarded the job.

 

[Strathead]

Only true if you know what you are estimating. Small projects are more clear, new construction or major renovations sometimes you get a pretty crude floor plan and that is it, no details on electrical and when you start asking questions they find out there is a lot of potential things electrical related that they never even thought about before. If you are not estimating/bidding on same things as competition - it really isn't fair to you, your competition or the owner and often leads to a lot of misunderstandings for whoever ends up being awarded the job.

Respectfully, for discussion not argument. You are referring to bidding more than estimating. In standard residential, there is what there is, and since the fixtures are usually dealt with separately you often avoid that pitfall as well only supplying cans, and possibly a couple garage lights and bathroom fixtures, excluding all others unless the plans actually have them on it. You know how many receptacles, where switches must go, what circuits are required, the method of construction, and the basic material being used. Determine outliers, like a well pump, a pool, the method of incoming service and you are done. I don't worry about competing against others, if they don't bid what is needed then they probably won't be my competition for long. If the plans are basically complete, then additional items not realized are changes or can be dealt with as adders.

Now after all that you have to bid. That is about selling yourself and knowing you competition.

 

[kwired]

Respectfully, for discussion not argument. You are referring to bidding more than estimating. In standard residential, there is what there is, and since the fixtures are usually dealt with separately you often avoid that pitfall as well only supplying cans, and possibly a couple garage lights and bathroom fixtures, excluding all others unless the plans actually have them on it. You know how many receptacles, where switches must go, what circuits are required, the method of construction, and the basic material being used. Determine outliers, like a well pump, a pool, the method of incoming service and you are done. I don't worry about competing against others, if they don't bid what is needed then they probably won't be my competition for long. If the plans are basically complete, then additional items not realized are changes or can be dealt with as adders.

Now after all that you have to bid. That is about selling yourself and knowing you competition.

Some have required plans submittals to AHJ's, here we don't. Most of what I do is design as you go to some extent.

Fixtures - if you don't specifically state they are not included why wouldn't you assume a customer may think they are? Even then you still need to know if you are running to multiple locations to several recessed lights or just to a center outlet in a room. Other things that start to add up that are usually optional are automatic lighting controls, dimmer switches, three way switches, undercabinet or other task/accent lighting that may not be clear on a basic floor plan, exterior lighting beyond code required lighting, often it isn't known yet whether the heating or water heating will be electric or gas (get a lot of both around here) or what size they will be, TV/phone/network cabling, sound system wiring, intercom systems, security systems. Some of those items like heating and water heating they have similar issues with the contractors installing them - haven't talked to those contractors or narrowed down what they will be installing - so electrician is in the dark on those items, if you want add on later after you find out what you will have they are upset that you have added to the total, if you include enough for worst case - you are too expensive and they don't want to hire you. Lose-lose situation.

 

[Strathead]

Some have required plans submittals to AHJ's, here we don't. Most of what I do is design as you go to some extent.

Fixtures - if you don't specifically state they are not included why wouldn't you assume a customer may think they are? Even then you still need to know if you are running to multiple locations to several recessed lights or just to a center outlet in a room. Other things that start to add up that are usually optional are automatic lighting controls, dimmer switches, three way switches, undercabinet or other task/accent lighting that may not be clear on a basic floor plan, exterior lighting beyond code required lighting, often it isn't known yet whether the heating or water heating will be electric or gas (get a lot of both around here) or what size they will be, TV/phone/network cabling, sound system wiring, intercom systems, security systems. Some of those items like heating and water heating they have similar issues with the contractors installing them - haven't talked to those contractors or narrowed down what they will be installing - so electrician is in the dark on those items, if you want add on later after you find out what you will have they are upset that you have added to the total, if you include enough for worst case - you are too expensive and they don't want to hire you. Lose-lose situation.

I am generalizing mostly of your typical spec house or tract home. If you are doing a higher end home obviously all the rules change. So sound system security system etc, not my concern, phone data OTOH certainly creates a gray area. My take and experience on fixtures. When they aren't specifically shown on the plans, you provide a rough in can for the can lights shown, a fan box in the bedrooms and living room on a double switch. And a switch outlet box in the ceiling for halls, entries, kitchens, dining, any area where a selection will be made. That is standard in my area. If a contractor wants lights for show, you put up contractor pack $15 fixtures throughout from the local orange or blue.

Things like heating and water, you have to spell them out, period. If those issues are resolved up front and the builder you are working for doesn't know how to properly set up and sell the remodel or construction, I wouldn't continue working for them. If dealing with an owner direct, you have to decide your approach and live with it. I look at it as a pain in the you know at the beginning or a pain at the end scenario and explain to potential I am pain at the beginning guy so lets get to work.

 

[kwired]

I am generalizing mostly of your typical spec house or tract home. If you are doing a higher end home obviously all the rules change. So sound system security system etc, not my concern, phone data OTOH certainly creates a gray area. My take and experience on fixtures. When they aren't specifically shown on the plans, you provide a rough in can for the can lights shown, a fan box in the bedrooms and living room on a double switch. And a switch outlet box in the ceiling for halls, entries, kitchens, dining, any area where a selection will be made. That is standard in my area. If a contractor wants lights for show, you put up contractor pack $15 fixtures throughout from the local orange or blue.

Things like heating and water, you have to spell them out, period. If those issues are resolved up front and the builder you are working for doesn't know how to properly set up and sell the remodel or construction, I wouldn't continue working for them. If dealing with an owner direct, you have to decide your approach and live with it. I look at it as a pain in the you know at the beginning or a pain at the end scenario and explain to potential I am pain at the beginning guy so lets get to work.

Makes sense, in higher population density areas. Not that there are never any spec homes around where I live, but not a lot of them. Most new homes around here are custom homes for an already determined owner. Most I run into hire their own subcontractors and though generals can be a PITA at least they usually do provide some coordination between subs and maybe come up with a plan that means something and is common plan to all subs.

Otherwise I have gotten many floor plans - nothing else just a general floor plan mostly showing walls, doors, kitchen layouts that 99% of the time will get more detailed later, and people hand that to you and ask how much to wire this house and act like you are to give them a number you will stick to based off that plan. They usually want a figure for financing reasons - yet have no finalized plans for the house, but you are supposed to stick to whatever price you gave them early on as well. I'm tired of playing that game and tell them I need some details or I am not even going to give them a guesstimate. Guesstimate too high - they don't call you back, too low - they try to talk you back to your guesstimate when they do add things on later.

 

[Strathead]

Makes sense, in higher population density areas. Not that there are never any spec homes around where I live, but not a lot of them. Most new homes around here are custom homes for an already determined owner. Most I run into hire their own subcontractors and though generals can be a PITA at least they usually do provide some coordination between subs and maybe come up with a plan that means something and is common plan to all subs.

Otherwise I have gotten many floor plans - nothing else just a general floor plan mostly showing walls, doors, kitchen layouts that 99% of the time will get more detailed later, and people hand that to you and ask how much to wire this house and act like you are to give them a number you will stick to based off that plan. They usually want a figure for financing reasons - yet have no finalized plans for the house, but you are supposed to stick to whatever price you gave them early on as well. I'm tired of playing that game and tell them I need some details or I am not even going to give them a guesstimate. Guesstimate too high - they don't call you back, too low - they try to talk you back to your guesstimate when they do add things on later.

Fully understandable and that is why we weren't talking apples to apples. I am predominately a commercial and above estimator. My direct involvement with residential is thin and I like it that way. But really, the situation you describe is sales, period. You have to deal on a case by case personal level and sell yourself even more than the service you offer. Some people will get it, some people won't.

 

[kwired]

Fully understandable and that is why we weren't talking apples to apples. I am predominately a commercial and above estimator. My direct involvement with residential is thin and I like it that way. But really, the situation you describe is sales, period. You have to deal on a case by case personal level and sell yourself even more than the service you offer. Some people will get it, some people won't.

I've had to learn that the hard way at times over the years. But again most of your residential project are low enough dollar amount that it isn't like putting all your eggs in one basket, but you can't lose or come close to break even on all your projects either or you are not in business for very long. A lot of light commercial stuff isn't any better, never any money in the budget for electrical items, except the gadgets that one can brag about seem to find a way into the budget and they usually want you to build them the best mostly out of scrap yard or bargain bin components.

 

[Master Disaster]

Starting Business

Starting Business

One good piece of advice is to remember the reason you are starting a business. Which is to make a good living at what you like to do, not get the job done whatever the cost to you (in other words "extra's are extra" people expect to pay, charge for every hour) Also building a strong client base that you keep in contact with will carry you through the tough times. Always charge what it would cost for you to pay an employee $30 per hour with full benefits and overhead which would probably come out to a minimum of $71 per hour before profit depending on your office situation, you cant give deals. Good customers call you back because you call them back and show up on time, not because you under charge them or give deals (those customers go away).

Homeadvisor.com is great advertising if you use it correctly