EV charger receptacles

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hbiss

hbiss

EC, New York NEC: 2017
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Little Falls, New York NEC: 2017
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Been thinking about this. I wouldn't get too excited about installing EV charger receptacles and chargers for the owners of EVs. One of the big drawbacks to EVs is the charging time. Nobody wants to wait four hours to recharge their car. My prediction is that the technology will improve to allow charging times comparable to refueling a gas powered vehicle BUT the amount of current will only be available at public charging stations that will replace gas stations.

Wadya think?

-Hal
 
Longer charge times aren't an inconvenience if you were already going to spend that much time at the location. I think homes, hotels, offices, movie theaters, malls, amusement parks, and other places where people already spend a long time are still attractive locations for chargers even with long charging times.
 
hbiss said:
Been thinking about this. I wouldn't get too excited about installing EV charger receptacles and chargers for the owners of EVs. One of the big drawbacks to EVs is the charging time. Nobody wants to wait four hours to recharge their car. My prediction is that the technology will improve to allow charging times comparable to refueling a gas powered vehicle BUT the amount of current will only be available at public charging stations that will replace gas stations.

Wadya think?

-Hal
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I can't imagine the size service that would be required for all electric quick charging of trucks at large truck stops....the company I worked for before I retired recently did a truck stop with 70 fueling pumps.
Even a car with a 100kWh battery would require a 480 amp, 3 phase 480 volt supply to completely charge from 0 to fully charged in 15 minutes. Even if you take the charge from 25% to full, you still need a 360 amp supply at 3 phase 480 volts.

For this to work, there would have to be vast amounts of stored power at the re-charging stations, as the utilities are not going to upgrade their distribution systems to supply those large intermittent loads.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
For this to work, there would have to be vast amounts of stored power at the re-charging stations, as the utilities are not going to upgrade their distribution systems to supply those large intermittent loads.
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I think if you paid them enough the POCO would be happy to take care of you. But the insane cost of being able to go from nothing to full load on that many stations would cost so much it would be uneconomic, to say the least. Where is the power going to come from?

And there are no economic means to store electricity at present.
 
I plug mine in at night and it refills as I sleep. The only time I have to wait while charging is on a long trip. In a year’s time, I likely spend less time waiting on a charge than you do in a gas station.
 
retirede said:
I plug mine in at night and it refills as I sleep. The only time I have to wait while charging is on a long trip. In a year’s time, I likely spend less time waiting on a charge than you do in a gas station.
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If want want to wait 12 hours between trip segments.
 
petersonra said:
I think if you paid them enough the POCO would be happy to take care of you. But the insane cost of being able to go from nothing to full load on that many stations would cost so much it would be uneconomic, to say the least. Where is the power going to come from?

And there are no economic means to store electricity at present.
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That's exactly the problem that makes EVs impractical right now. At present they appeal to a niche market of people who use them for local trips and can put up with long charge times. But in the future, they are going to have to be drop-in replacements for gas and diesel powered vehicles which means comparable "refueling" times along with the same convenience. I don't see that happening anytime soon and I predict that EV sales will drop off as that "niche" market gets saturated.

Already some POCOs are complaining about the charging loads on their facilities.

-Hal
 
petersonra said:
If want want to wait 12 hours between trip segments.
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If you're driving 100 miles per day or less, almost any EV will work fine for personal use with overnight charging.

If you're driving 150-200 miles per day, there are still plenty of EV options that would work fine for personal use with just overnight charging.

For long road trips, EVs introduce a refueling wait time penalty compared to gas cars.

If you're hauling a lot of equipment, versus just a couple people, then the above numbers change.

Cheers, Wayne
 
hbiss said:
That's exactly the problem that makes EVs impractical right now.
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That entirely depends on the use case. If you're driving 200 miles a day while hauling 1000 pounds of equipment, most EVs would not be up to that today. Likewise if you're taking 400 mile road trips every weekend.

But if you're commuting 50 miles a day, with occasional <200 mile trips, EVs are more practical than gas cars right now.

Cheers, Wayne
 
hbiss said:
Been thinking about this. I wouldn't get too excited about installing EV charger receptacles and chargers for the owners of EVs. One of the big drawbacks to EVs is the charging time. Nobody wants to wait four hours to recharge their car. My prediction is that the technology will improve to allow charging times comparable to refueling a gas powered vehicle BUT the amount of current will only be available at public charging stations that will replace gas stations.

Wadya think?

-Hal
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You could be right.
But in the meantime I'll still make hay while the sun is shining.
 
They are practical for the majority of vehicle owners. They are likely even more practical for two-car families that would share an ICE vehicle on longer trips.

We live 1 mile from the hospital where my wife works. It’s about 2.5 miles to my daughters school. She wants an EV, planning to buy one within the next 12/mo for her. She drives maybe 35 miles M-F.

Most of the people in my neighborhood work at either the hospital or offices downtown which is maybe 3 miles away, and several teachers here that work within nearby schools. EV’s would work for all of them for their daily driving.


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hbiss said:
Been thinking about this. I wouldn't get too excited about installing EV charger receptacles and chargers for the owners of EVs. One of the big drawbacks to EVs is the charging time. Nobody wants to wait four hours to recharge their car. My prediction is that the technology will improve to allow charging times comparable to refueling a gas powered vehicle BUT the amount of current will only be available at public charging stations that will replace gas stations.

Wadya think?

-Hal
Click to expand...
I think you're way off.

What's most off is the false dichotomy. You're certainly correct that gas station style supercharger stations will pop up in a lot more places, with and without the mini-marts. But only the most cash-poor homeowner is going to not want the convenience of charging at home as well.

Also you're already behind the times with your 'technology will improve' comment. Many EVs can already charge at 7-12kw at home or 100+kW at a supercharger. So it's not like homeowners will have to choose between one or the other. They will all want both options. Certainly no car manufacturer is going to compete well by not offering home charging, nor can they really make a cheaper car by doing so since it's all basically just software controlling power electronics. Actually the engineering to make supercharging safe is probably the more expensive part of it.

One more thing: supercharging will almost certainly lead to slightly lower battery lifetimes, no matter where technology goes. So the homeowner who mostly recharges at home and only supercharges when needed will get better value out of the car. And as more people understand that, demand for home charging will not decrease.

There will be plenty of work for electricians in the coming years installing home charging circuits and equipment. My guess would be that we're at least a decade in front of the peak demand for such work.
 
jaggedben said:
There will be plenty of work for electricians in the coming years installing home charging circuits and equipment. My guess would be that we're at least a decade in front of the peak demand for such work.
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My guess in 10 years more people will replace their ICE vehicles with hydrogen infrastructures, competing with higher cost of electricity demand. Hydrogen hubs are already being built in your state.

www.csis.org

Hydrogen Hubs Proposals: Guideposts for the Future of the U.S. Hydrogen Economy

The Department of Energy expects to support six to eight regional clean hydrogen hubs with funds from the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act. Around the country, 22 hub proposals are under development to vie for the funds.
www.csis.org www.csis.org

The hubs will provide the missing infrastructure for Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles.


Click "<Skip Ads>" to start this intro.
 
As we get more EV chargers in homes and superchargers at public spaces, at what point do we need to upgrade the infrastructure of the US electrical grid? Up in my neck of the woods many of the homes are on #2 AL overhead, and a lot of the UG is on 1/0 AL, so just to upgrade that is not going to be cheap, and most people do not even think about that when buying a EV.
If The country goes “green” energy, how can that produce enough electricity, without having our land full of solar panels and wind farms?


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McLintock said:
As we get more EV chargers in homes and superchargers at public spaces, at what point do we need to upgrade the infrastructure of the US electrical grid? Up in my neck of the woods many of the homes are on #2 AL overhead, and a lot of the UG is on 1/0 AL, so just to upgrade that is not going to be cheap, and most people do not even think about that when buying a EV.
If The country goes “green” energy, how can that produce enough electricity, without having our land full of solar panels and wind farms?


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I think the increased demand being introduced by EV adoption is gradual enough that it can be handled by natural market forces - higher demand means higher prices which incentivize supply expansion. I know it’s not that simple in the regulated environment utilities operate in, but it can work. For example, we’re seeing more and more TOU pricing and demand charges for residential rates.

Your last question cannot be addressed on this forum, because it has to involve politics.
 
Charging aside, another consideration is vehicle and battery life. I usually keep me vehicles for better than 10 years, once or twice more than 20. What is the lifespan of EV batteries? I hear that to replace them can cost upwards of 10K.

Probably makes more sense to lease a vehicle and turn it in every three years so you don't have to worry about that little problem.

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
Charging aside, another consideration is vehicle and battery life. I usually keep me vehicles for better than 10 years, once or twice more than 20. What is the lifespan of EV batteries? I hear that to replace them can cost upwards of 10K.

Probably makes more sense to lease a vehicle and turn it in every three years so you don't have to worry about that little problem.

-Hal
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Here’s a good summary of EV battery warranties:
https://joinyaa.com/guides/ev-battery-warranties/

Like conventional ICE power trains, I’d expect the vast majority to be still in service well past warranty expiration.

Right now, the problem with leasing is that you are not entitled to the federal tax credit, the leasing company gets it, and many won’t pass the savings on. Of course Tesla and GM vehicles no longer qualify for the credit anyway, having exceeded to 200K vehicles sold threshold.
 
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