Evidence suggests failing neutral? The struggle with utility company

[Dmax]

I will try to be as concise as possible (cue the long story)

This summer we started getting minor shocks when using water hose outside (grab the metal handle to turn off, water flowing on us and grass). Testing between the metal spicket and the earth (the soil outside etc) shows 20v. I checked 3 times during the next day, morning 7am- 5volts, 12pm 20volts, 7pm 7volts. Verified the plumbing etc at house is all bonded and shows good continuity there.
I go outside to a random outlet, test between grounding of outlet and the earth (soil) same 20volts.

Utility company comes out around 12pm and turns off my main breaker at house, still reads 20volts.

Utility company removed the meter from the house to disconnect power altogether. The 20volts goes away. I was not present when they did this and do not know if they had truly disconnected everything (neutral etc), or just the supply hot feed.

Utility guy says looks like its from your house has an open or poor connected neutral. I do not know if utility checked to see if their supply side neutral measured 0v to earth or not, I would hope so.

Other property details for full scope:
- nearest neighbor is maybe 1000-1500 ft?

My question(s):

1- If utility service side was to be tested for a bad neutral, wouldnt they need to test this while having a load on the circuit?
2- If my whole house breaker is OFF and it measures to show no power connection through breaker, and company still reads 20volts, to me that would be indicative that its either utility side, the meter itself, or the small span of neutral between service meter and my main breaker, but again with no load no flow, why a reading?

In summary, not sure if I am just not understanding this utility company result fully, or did utility company not completely check on their end? Sorry my electrical background is mostly in electronic controls, industrial equipment etc.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Utility company comes out around 12pm and turns off my main breaker at house, still reads 20volts.

Utility company removed the meter from the house to disconnect power altogether. The 20volts goes away. I was not present when they did this and do not know if they had truly disconnected everything (neutral etc), or just the supply hot feed.

How do you know the 20V went away if you weren't there?

Split bolt a wire to the ground coming out of the meterbase, string it around the house and in a window if needed. Get the other end near the neutral connection at the main breaker. Check the voltage with the breaker on from the wire to the neutral in the breaker panel. This would rule out your service cable between the meter and the breaker panel.

I would say 90+% of utility workers do not truly understand electricity and how it works.

 

[Fred B]

Open or bad main neutral would be typically indicated by inconsistent high and low reading phase to neutral that is grounded. Variation of readings would be modified based on loads applied at times of reading. Disconnecting all loads will show a balanced zero or near zero L-N reading with an open neutral.
A reading from a grounded source to earth is indicative of NEV, much harder to find source.
Both circumstance would get a qualified electrician to investigate cause of the voltages present, too many diagnostic step to provide an answer to a novice unfamiliar with the process and safety concerns.
Utility Co in general don't like to take responsibility for an issue and will (unless substantial evidence present) push the issue back onto the premises wiring.
Want to understand NEV? Mike Holt has several videos related to NEV that go into the diagnostics and reason why such is present. Just click on the Icon at top of page and then in the search type in NEV. it will give multiple sources printed and video that discuss the topic.

 

[ptonsparky]

I agree, you or your electrician needed to be present during those tests.
FWIW that short length between the panel & meter fails often enough.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Since removing the meter does not open the service neutral, if the voltage actually did go away, that would strongly suggest that that issue is on the load side of the meter. However since the voltage did not go away when the main breaker was turned off, I have my doubts that it went away when the utility pulled the meter.
The first step the utility should take for this type of issue is to use a beast of burden tester

 

[Dmax]

How do you know the 20V went away if you weren't there?

Split bolt a wire to the ground coming out of the meterbase, string it around the house and in a window if needed. Get the other end near the neutral connection at the main breaker. Check the voltage with the breaker on from the wire to the neutral in the breaker panel. This would rule out your service cable between the meter and the breaker panel.

I would say 90+% of utility workers do not truly understand electricity and how it works.

Bingo I dont know the voltage went away!
and I dont trust their initial evaluation. Hence my investigation thanks

 

[Dmax]

Open or bad main neutral would be typically indicated by inconsistent high and low reading phase to neutral that is grounded. Variation of readings would be modified based on loads applied at times of reading. Disconnecting all loads will show a balanced zero or near zero L-N reading with an open neutral.
A reading from a grounded source to earth is indicative of NEV, much harder to find source.
Both circumstance would get a qualified electrician to investigate cause of the voltages present, too many diagnostic step to provide an answer to a novice unfamiliar with the process and safety concerns.
Utility Co in general don't like to take responsibility for an issue and will (unless substantial evidence present) push the issue back onto the premises wiring.
Want to understand NEV? Mike Holt has several videos related to NEV that go into the diagnostics and reason why such is present. Just click on the Icon at top of page and then in the search type in NEV. it will give multiple sources printed and video that discuss the topic.

Thanks for the info. Please note my purpose here isnt to measure and do further work on my own, Im looking to either understand why the utilities claim was true (which im doubtful of, but is plausible), or help gain enough info to convince utility of further investigation on their end. I dont have hundreds of dollars minimum to give to an electrician come out here and check things and then tell me call utility company back in to check again.

Just want to make the best decision with a penny wise mind

But yes I will check out the NEV info I love learning about this stuff thanks.

 

[Dmax]

Since removing the meter does not open the service neutral, if the voltage actually did go away, that would strongly suggest that that issue is on the load side of the meter. However since the voltage did not go away when the main breaker was turned off, I have my doubts that it went away when the utility pulled the meter.
The first step the utility should take for this type of issue is to use a beast of burden tester

Ok so Im not crazy on my thought about them not disconnecting the neutral.thanks

 

[jaggedben]

I agree, you or your electrician needed to be present during those tests.
FWIW that short length between the panel & meter fails often enough.

How would a hot conductor failing between meter and main result in the symptoms described? The utility report is incompetent or dishonest.

 

[ptonsparky]

How would a hot conductor failing between meter and main result in the symptoms described? The utility report is incompetent or dishonest.

I only meant it does fail.

 

[Hv&Lv]

How would a hot conductor failing between meter and main result in the symptoms described? The utility report is incompetent or dishonest.

Not hot conductor, but the neutral on that piece of covered SEC cable goes bad often enough.
I’m still trying to figure out how he knows the 20V went away if he wasn't there.
And interested in the outcome. The neutral connection at the transformer could also be bad. It sounds like a grounding issue either way.

 

[jaggedben]

Not hot conductor, but the neutral on that piece of covered SEC cable goes bad often enough.
I’m still trying to figure out how he knows the 20V went away if he wasn't there.
And interested in the outcome. The neutral connection at the transformer could also be bad. It sounds like a grounding issue either way.

As we all know, pulling the meter shouldn't normally change anything about the neutral and therefore can't cleanly explain why the 20V goes away. But I suppose it's possible that with banging the meter socket around to pull the meter they coincidentally caused a failing neutral at that location to temporarily 'reconnect' itself.

 

[Hv&Lv]

As we all know, pulling the meter shouldn't normally change anything about the neutral and therefore can't cleanly explain why the 20V goes away. But I suppose it's possible that with banging the meter socket around to pull the meter they coincidentally caused a failing neutral at that location to temporarily 'reconnect' itself.

Pulling the meter makes all the energized lines go dead, thereby any returning currents on the SE cable are 0
pull the meter and it goes away, could be anywhere between the XF and the panel. Pull the meter and it doesn’t go away, neighbors service.
Im still leaning to a bonding/grounding issue somewhere. He didn’t say the voltage fluctuated.

 

[Jpflex]

“Utility company comes out around 12pm and turns off my main breaker at house, still reads 20volts.”

I don’t get how a potential can be read with no line potential breaker off unless you measured before main breaker and neutral?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Pulling the meter makes all the energized lines go dead, thereby any returning currents on the SE cable are 0
pull the meter and it goes away, could be anywhere between the XF and the panel. Pull the meter and it doesn’t go away, neighbors service.
Im still leaning to a bonding/grounding issue somewhere. He didn’t say the voltage fluctuated.

Or voltage drop on the primary neutral.