Existing loads and loads removed

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WA_Sparky

WA_Sparky

Electrical Engineer
Location
Vancouver, WA, Clark
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I have a coffee shop project that has a 200A service. Utility said there are 6 disconnects already, we cannot upgrade service to 400A and they highly doubt inspector will allow separate service to the building. Im assuming this is because the tenants are not separated by fire wall which would allow another group of disconnects.

Existing load info from utility is only showing 27A at 208/3. All is getting demoed minus existing mech units (60A/3,40A/3), Water heater (30A/2), bathroom circuit, and an unknown 30A/2 circuit.

There is no question that actual installed load will be under panel ampacity but these questions are specifically to ensure load calculations are code compliant.

Trying to determine existing load vs load removed:

If I know the existing mech equipment nameplate rating, do I have to use that as existing load remaining on panel or can I have those circuits 30 day metered?

For unknown circuits, should I consider 80% of the breaker rating as existing load or would it be better to meter each existing circuit to remain?

If the majority of the building is getting demoed, would this be considered "New Restraunt"?

Any possible loop holes or workarounds:
With new loads + 80% of existing loads, demand is 260A.
If demand calcs cannot be manipulated to be below panel amperages, what would be the best option to ensure everything is done by the book.

A. Try and have some loads moved to house panel and attempt to get tenant and building owner to agree on prorated electrical bill.
B. Work with utility to add 1200A/3 disconnect ahead of utility switch gear to get around 6disconnect rule.
C. Permit 90% of equipment installed, 30 day meter to find new "existing load", then install remaining 10% of equipment to keep demand below panel amperage.
D. Try to persuade inspector to allow additional service if existing meter (in existing switch gear) is capped and maxed at 5 disconnects?

Thanks in advance for your input!
 
Curious what your proposed new load is?

Your option C is interesting. Have you ever done that before? Even on new construction, that’s an interesting approach, really got my wheels turning. Makes sense, just curious if it’s done a lot.

If you could show some specific loads as removed from your 12 month peak you received from Utility, you can keep the existing mechanical in that umbrella, take that at 125% then add your proposed loads. That would be reasonable. I don’t think that section for calculating service with 12 month peak says you can remove load but if it’s reasonable , then it’s worth a try, especially if you have something big coming out.

I think option D is best approach. To help I’ve made details of placards and nameplates. including for existing equipment. In your situation maybe adding 1 of 6 service disconnect.... etc. if you can get your new service equipment grouped close to the others, and made sure they couldn’t use the old one, seems pretty clean to me.
 
If you are demoing majority of existing service, and can definitively identify the remaining loads via mfg specifications, then simply do a full load calculation as if all new. What do you get then? Following 220.88 apply appropriate demand factor to entire load not just new load. Doing that what do you get?
AFA the "unknown load" my suggestion is to identify that load, can be important factor in reducing your load calculation. I've seen where someone had installed onto another panel an unrelated load that more appropriately belonged on house panel, and seen load that was actually associated with a different business onto the "wrong" panel and would effect load calculation as well as an expense to the business.
 
Is replacing the 200A disconnect with a 400A disconnect not an option? Would keep you at 6.


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WA_Sparky said:
I have a coffee shop project that has a 200A service. Utility said there are 6 disconnects already, we cannot upgrade service to 400A and they highly doubt inspector will allow separate service to the building.
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I think it would be worth 5 minutes of your time to speak to an inspector and find out what your real options are, versus the secondhand info you are getting from a utility company.
 
Cow said:
I think it would be worth 5 minutes of your time to speak to an inspector and find out what your real options are, versus the secondhand info you are getting from a utility company.
Click to expand...
Yeah i got ahold of him and we are essentially going with option C, "Permit 90% of equipment installed, 30 day meter to find new "existing load", then install remaining 10% of equipment to keep demand below panel amperage."
 
electrofelon said:
For D, I don't see that there is anything to "persuade" the inspector on. If the existing meter is blanked off, then you only have 5 disconnects. Go ahead and add your 6th. Don't let him try to bully you into what ifs.
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Yeah he was actually really cool and understanding. He said we can get a new service in there if needed but likes the idea of getting most equipment installed then connect remaining equipment load at a later date.
 
WA_Sparky said:
The issue was the switch gear containing all (6) 200A/3 meter and disconnects apparently aren't sized to allow for a 400A/3 meter.
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By switch gear do you mean a meter center? If it is a meter center, you might be able to get a 400A section for it that would let you use a larger meter for the coffee shop.
 
WA_Sparky said:
Yeah he was actually really cool and understanding. He said we can get a new service in there if needed but likes the idea of getting most equipment installed then connect remaining equipment load at a later date.
Click to expand...

I guess I’m just really confused too about not knowing the loads of the new tenant. Are they doing this thing without having a plan as to what actual equipment they’re going to buy? I build hundreds of restaurants, coffee shops included, and there’s always an equipment schedule.


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