existing violation

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tedge

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Camden, ME
Had a new customer call me today about setting up a generator. When I got to the job I saw a 200A main breaker panel with a 100A sub panel about 40 feet away. The sub-panel is fed with #2 SEU (3 cond.). He wants me to put in a 100A transfer switch to power the sub panel in case of power outage. When I explained that this was a violation that needed to be corrected before the transfer switch was installed, he balked. It would take removing newly placed and painted sheet rock to get the SER to the sub-panel, and he was not too keen on it. So my questions are: 1) How do I explain this problem, in language that he'd understand, and impress upon him the importance of changing this? I tried to explain the no fault path, objectionable current, etc. but his eyes glazed over and I lost him. He's of the "if it ain't broke..." mind set. 2) If he won't change it, I could get him to sign off saying he was informed of the issue, but chose not to correct it. Is this just asking for trouble, or would this stand up if a problem did arise?
 
Re: existing violation

I would change it to SER or not do the job.

A sort-of layman explanation to him might be,
The grounded (neutral) conductor carries current back to the source, so this conductor needs to be insulated. His SEU does not have an insulated grounded (neutral) conductor, so it must be changed.

I don't think I would get too technical. It's the right way, or no way, IMO.
 
Re: existing violation

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I'll try the uninsulated conductor route, and walk away if he still doesn't want to do it.
 
Re: existing violation

All normally non-current carrying metal objects that are in any way bonded to this sub-panel will and is carrying normal operating current. This usually goes noticed until someone starts getting shocked.
 
Re: existing violation

At the risk of being stoned (with big rocks):

If the MDP is bonded, and then there's only three conductors running to the subpanel, and it's bonded, and everything is separate after that, which component would become energized? I'm having trouble putting my finger on what would shock people from this setup.

Tedge, an easier solution (if possible load-wise) is to convert the sub-panel to 120V. Use the bare conductor as a ground, use one of the current hots as a neutral, unbond the subpanel. I imagine you've already eliminated that possibility, but you didn't mention it.

FWIW, I would not let the problem prevent me from installing the generator, even if left as it sits. So, if that's stone-worthy, I suppose I'm in for some good reasons as to why that course of action is wrong. This sounds exactly like a 250.32(B)(2) configuration, except the two panels happen to be in the same structure.

Edit to change the post significantly - I forgot I was editing, and really went to town on it! :eek:

[ January 19, 2006, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: existing violation

I would probably get a permit and invite the inspector to the job to meet the customer and I prior to doing any work. The inspector will ( or will not) break the bad news to the customer, I always let the politicians do my dirty political work for me..........

On another note, there are several times I have changed out an old meter base on an old house, In my area I must install A disconnect outside if the Inside panel is not Back-to-back with meter. So Install a 200A 8cir combo. , then subfeed the excisting service equipment (which is now a sub panel) with a 100a breaker. Some would say I should change the feeder to ser. but the upgrade has to end somewhere... If I changed the feeder, then I would have to install ground bars and isolate neutrals, then I might have to install GFCI / afci breakers. Oh but they wont fit this darn ol FPA panel so lets change it to. But wait! now Ive done more than a 50% upgrade to the dwelling electrical, so locally Im now required to bring up entire house to current codes. smokes, grounded recepts, spacing,ect, we are now at a complete rewire all from changing a meter can..............back to my main point, let the government work for you, If they require it then good, If not then good....
 
Re: existing violation

Originally posted by scwirenut:
But wait! now Ive done more than a 50% upgrade to the dwelling electrical, so locally Im now required to bring up entire house to current codes.
Click to expand...
Not so. The 50% refers to the area of the house, not the amount of copper.

However, if you place a main disconnect outside, then the pane becomes a sub-panel, like you said, and you do have to relocate the grounding connections and separate neutrals in the panel.
 
Re: existing violation

I would ask the home owner when the sub panel was installed and who did the installation. If it was a recent install I would give the company a call and give them a chance to correct the mistake. If they don't I would report them for doing illegal work. That job didn't pass any inspection. There is no time limit on safety violations. If the homeowner put the sub panel in, he would have to pay for the correction. The easy answer is that there is no choice in the matter it has to be changed to pass inspection.
 
Re: existing violation

I have done a couple of service upgrades where the seu was long and expensive to replace and with permission from the AHJ, connected the existing 3 wire to a breaker in the new service disconnect. Like George said (at the risk of being stoned), if everything is bonded, there should be no problem.
 
Re: existing violation

Electricman2, we can get special permission to use the 3 conductor as feeder form disconnect breaker also, but the original must be grand fathered in ( original to house ) and we must show that the cost and amount of destruction to the house would be impracticable. They will not look at the job until an inspection is called for and if you can't prove your case, then you have to change the feeder. Rule of thumb , If you have to tear half the house apart to install a new cable then permission will be granted. A little sheet rock in the garage, no way.
 
Re: existing violation

In my area if you change a inside panel and a outside service it is considered 50% upgrade to electrical, so it all must be as new..............also a thought, If a breaker is double tapped in a panel and I install an additional new breaker to seperate them., would you think I should now be required to bring the entire circuit up to code, what if its a non grounded circuit with non grounded recepts, I think you have to use common sense and stop somewhere . this example is no different than this topic. I for one would not change the se cable. when the inspector comes to do his job if he wants it changed then the homeowner must deal with that additional charge. Only if I was installing a feeder would I consider it neccesary to comply with current codes. In this case there is a feeder already there. .....just like if I was adding a breaker the nongrounded recepts are already there. ect...........
 
Re: existing violation

Thanks for all the replies. In my area (somewhat backwoods of Maine), there are towns that don't have local inspectors. This is one of them. No permit, no inspection required. However, there are state inspectors who will grudgingly come out to check something out. They are more concerned with the commercial/industrial end of things. The service/subpanel were installed eons ago, so the grandfathering might be a way out of it. In all honesty, if it were my house I'd want it done right. But then again, this guy has lived there for 15 years (service/subpanel predate him) and "he ain't neva had no problems" so I can see his reluctance. I think I'll try one more time to convince him, then give the state inspector a call to get his take on it.
 
Re: existing violation

Just an update...

I talked to the guy last week and told him that I wouldn't be able to do the work without ugrading the wiring to the sub-panel. He said he'd get back to me. Today he called and said (sorry for the spelling, just trying to imitate the accent) "I had anotha fella in heah today to look at that, and ya know, he said the same damned thing about them wyahs." So, long story short, I got the job with the rewire to the sub-panel. ;)
 
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