Expanding Two-wire, no ground circuits

[cshaugh]

I am working on a renovation that has several two-wire, no ground circuits. I think I understand correctly that IF such a circuit is expanded, with additional outlets, then the entire circuit must be upgraded to current code requirements. (Please correct this if it is incorrect.) My question .... if the same circuit is expanded not with outlets, but with ceiling light fixtures, does the same "must upgrade to current" rule apply?

 

[infinity]

Take a look at 406.4 for receptacles, I know of no exception for lighting outlets.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It does not appear to allow extending a 2 wire cir. however if there is a 2 wire circuit and you are replacing a luminaire then you could use art 250.130. reference art.410.40 and 410.44 except. 3

 

[Cavie]

see definition of outlet.

 

[Little Bill]

It does not appear to allow extending a 2 wire cir. however if there is a 2 wire circuit and you are replacing a luminaire then you could use art 250.130. reference art.410.40 and 410.44 except. 3

Huh?

250.130(C) says right in the title "or branch circuit extensions"

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch
Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor
of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension
shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system
as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or
branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor
within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar
within the service equipment enclosure

To the OP:
I see no where that requires you to bring the existing circuit up to current code. You do have to follow the requirements for a replacing a non-grounded receptacle or branch circuit extension.

 

[suemarkp]

If you extend it, you may need to arc fault that whole circuit if arc fault requirements apply to any outlet on that circuit.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Huh?

250.130(C) says right in the title "or branch circuit extensions"

To the OP:
I see no where that requires you to bring the existing circuit up to current code. You do have to follow the requirements for a replacing a non-grounded receptacle or branch circuit extension.

You could use that for a two wire circuit extension to a lighting outlet, but you can not extend a two wire circuit to serve a receptacle outlet.

 

[Little Bill]

You could use that for a two wire circuit extension to a lighting outlet, but you can not extend a two wire circuit to serve a receptacle outlet.

That's not the way I read it. I see nowhere that says you can do one and not the other.

Only stipulation I see is you can't attach an EGC if extended from a GFCI protected receptacle. Or if you do attach one it has to be run from one of the permitted points.

The handbook even shows attaching an EGC to the extended part if it is connected to one of the allowed points on either the GES or GEC.

Here is one of the comments from the handbook.

1. The branch circuit does not contain an equipment
ground.
2. An existing branch circuit is being extended for additional
receptacle outlets.
3. An equipment grounding conductor is connected from
the receptacle grounding terminal to any accessible
point on the grounding electrode system, to any accessible
point on the grounding electrode conductor, to the
grounded service conductor within the service equipment
enclosure, or to the equipment grounding terminal
bar in the enclosure from which the circuit is supplied.

I know the handbook commentary is not code but we all know most of the authors are affiliated with NFPA.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That's not the way I read it. I see nowhere that says you can do one and not the other.

Only stipulation I see is you can't attach an EGC if extended from a GFCI protected receptacle. Or if you do attach one it has to be run from one of the permitted points.

The handbook even shows attaching an EGC to the extended part if it is connected to one of the allowed points on either the GES or GEC.
...
I know the handbook commentary is not code but we all know most of the authors are affiliated with NFPA.

The handbook is just like anything posted here...just an opinion.
There is nothing in 250.130(C) that says what you can do with the two wire branch circuit extension, but the rules in 406.4 cover the requirements for grounding of receptacle outlets and I don't see anything in 250.130(C) that changes that. Even for an extension of a two wire circuit for a lighting outlet you would be limited to the use of a non-metallic light fixture. 410.44 EX #1 and 410.44.

There is nothing in 250.120(C) that modifies the rules in 406 and 411. I don't think that there is any provision that even permits a rule in one article in Chapters 1 through 4 to modify a rule in another article in Chapters 1 through 4. 90.3

 

[Little Bill]

The handbook is just like anything posted here...just an opinion.
There is nothing in 250.130(C) that says what you can do with the two wire branch circuit extension, but the rules in 406.4 cover the requirements for grounding of receptacle outlets and I don't see anything in 250.130(C) that changes that. Even for an extension of a two wire circuit for a lighting outlet you would be limited to the use of a non-metallic light fixture. 410.44 EX #1 and 410.44.

There is nothing in 250.120(C) that modifies the rules in 406 and 411. I don't think that there is any provision that even permits a rule in one article in Chapters 1 through 4 to modify a rule in another article in Chapters 1 through 4. 90.3

You haven't convinced me because I don't see where it says "you can't"

As far as grounding, you are allowed to connect an EGC to an allowed point on the GEC or GES. So in theory you could do that at the first receptacle in an extension and continue on from there with the EGC. Why would this be in the code if you can't extend a 2-wire circuit? Why is the term "branch circuit extensions" in the title of 250.130(C)?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... Why is the term "branch circuit extensions" in the title of 250.130(C)?

You can extend it as long as you comply with the other rules. I don't see an extension of a two wire circuit to a new receptacle outlet as being in compliance with the other rules.

 

[suemarkp]

I always interpreted this as you can't extend a 2-wire circuit with ungrounded 2-wire cable (should you happen to have some from the old days). With the wording of 250.130, I take it to mean you can extend that 2-wire circuit with modern 3-wire cable (2 current carrying plus EGC) and you then must tie the EGC to one of the specified locations.

It makes it difficult when 2-wire could mean two current carrying conductors with ground (modern term), or two current carrying conductors without ground (old term).

 

[Little Bill]

I always interpreted this as you can't extend a 2-wire circuit with ungrounded 2-wire cable (should you happen to have some from the old days). With the wording of 250.130, I take it to mean you can extend that 2-wire circuit with modern 3-wire cable (2 current carrying plus EGC) and you then must tie the EGC to one of the specified locations.

It makes it difficult when 2-wire could mean two current carrying conductors with ground (modern term), or two current carrying conductors without ground (old term).

That's what I've been trying to point out. I never said you could use old 2-wire w/no EGC. I even mentioned connecting an EGC to one of the allowed points.

I know informational notes (fine print notes) are not part of the code but they do help point you to code. There is a note in 406 that points you back to 250.130 for branch circuit extensions.

406.4(C) info note #2

Informational Note No. 2: For extensions of existing branch
circuits, see 250.130.