Hey all... when i have a prob this is where i come. Problem: I've done very little work with neon. I've taken on the task of repairing all of the neon on a local adult club. The club is trimmed in neon, neon sign, etc, etc. Some of the neon is working fine, some isnt of course. Today I began my task. I got on the roof where the neon ballasts are. (Remember, I've done little to NO work on neon before.) First thing that comes to mind is maybe a ballast or 2 is bad. I felt certain this one particular ballast was bad so I replaced it. I felt it was bad because I traced out the 2 secondaries. The secondary on the left side of the ballast seemed fine, those lights working.... the secondary on the right side of the ballast, those lights not working. The more I got to looking the more confusing it got. Well, I went ahead and replaced the ballast with a new one, the new ballasts appear to have some sort of ground fault system built in.... it detected ground fault therefore the secondary of the ballast wasnt working. NOW, of course, the neons from BOTH sides of the new ballasts are out. Well, I start doing more looking, I find that the way its wired is 2 ballasts per neon fixture. EXAMPLE: If I trace the wire from the left some of ballast A. and the wire jumps from neon to neon, it'll end up on the left side of ballast B. Is this standard practice? I would have figured the opposite.. I woulda figured if I trace the wire from the left side of ballast A. it would take me to the right side of ballast A. Am I way off track here or is this wiring not common?? Thx all. Jason
Explaining And/Or Understanding Neon
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Re: Explaining And/Or Understanding Neon
Jason
Many years ago i spent my time in the sign bussiness. What I learned was that you did anything and everything to make a buck. regardless of safety,either for your employees or customers bussines.
Those "ballasts" are transformers and what you saw when you traced from one side of a transformer to the other side of the other was a sign guys way of taking 2 bad transformers and making a "new" to get his customer working. Neon signs used to be all wired in a series, start at one end of the transformer and loop between tubes back to the other end. Everything is fine until a tube gets broke or goes bad. When that happens the transformer still tries to fire the remaining tubes, This sets up avery high resistance and with the voltages that are being used from neon transformers, up to 15,000, caused a lot of fires.
The new transformer that you tried to install will not work with a series circuit, you must make 2 circuits out of one. That is you take say 15 feet of glass from tyhe left side of the transformer and hook it up from the transformer end and back to the mid point ground, then you take 15 feet and hook it up on the right side and everything will work. The ground fault interupter in this set up will sense an imbalance in the circuits and shut off the secondaries if there is a problem. this prevents fires and all the other bad stuff from happening when a neon circuit goes bad.
One off the worst shocks I ever got was from trying to climb up to fix a neon trim on a local tavern and the transformer had grounded to the gutter where i had set up my al. extension ladder. You guys know the rest.
if I could offer up some advice, run away from this job, it sounds like this is a bad instalation and if it burns to the ground it will be your fault. Or find a good sign guy to help you out. One who uses and likes the new transformers, not the old sign guy that works from job to bottle and back. If you need more info email me direct and I will put you in contact with a guy i trained who is in the sign bussiness.
PS Those girls ain't worth it
Jason
Many years ago i spent my time in the sign bussiness. What I learned was that you did anything and everything to make a buck. regardless of safety,either for your employees or customers bussines.
Those "ballasts" are transformers and what you saw when you traced from one side of a transformer to the other side of the other was a sign guys way of taking 2 bad transformers and making a "new" to get his customer working. Neon signs used to be all wired in a series, start at one end of the transformer and loop between tubes back to the other end. Everything is fine until a tube gets broke or goes bad. When that happens the transformer still tries to fire the remaining tubes, This sets up avery high resistance and with the voltages that are being used from neon transformers, up to 15,000, caused a lot of fires.
The new transformer that you tried to install will not work with a series circuit, you must make 2 circuits out of one. That is you take say 15 feet of glass from tyhe left side of the transformer and hook it up from the transformer end and back to the mid point ground, then you take 15 feet and hook it up on the right side and everything will work. The ground fault interupter in this set up will sense an imbalance in the circuits and shut off the secondaries if there is a problem. this prevents fires and all the other bad stuff from happening when a neon circuit goes bad.
One off the worst shocks I ever got was from trying to climb up to fix a neon trim on a local tavern and the transformer had grounded to the gutter where i had set up my al. extension ladder. You guys know the rest.
if I could offer up some advice, run away from this job, it sounds like this is a bad instalation and if it burns to the ground it will be your fault. Or find a good sign guy to help you out. One who uses and likes the new transformers, not the old sign guy that works from job to bottle and back. If you need more info email me direct and I will put you in contact with a guy i trained who is in the sign bussiness.
PS Those girls ain't worth it
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Re: Explaining And/Or Understanding Neon
ahh, I did notice that these particular "transformers" are also grounded to the gutter, but, there is also an eg.. I think the eg was ran at a later time by another electrican who knew the danger of grounding to the gutter. however, the gutter ground is still connected. Caj, are u suggesting I rewire the neon where it loops back to the other side of the same ballast? Maybe thats the way to go?? I promised this guy I'd get it fixed. So many others have done exactly as you stated and "ran" from the job. I wanna fix it but not dangerously. I'm sure theres a safe way of doing this work.. just a little guidance. Thx again
ahh, I did notice that these particular "transformers" are also grounded to the gutter, but, there is also an eg.. I think the eg was ran at a later time by another electrican who knew the danger of grounding to the gutter. however, the gutter ground is still connected. Caj, are u suggesting I rewire the neon where it loops back to the other side of the same ballast? Maybe thats the way to go?? I promised this guy I'd get it fixed. So many others have done exactly as you stated and "ran" from the job. I wanna fix it but not dangerously. I'm sure theres a safe way of doing this work.. just a little guidance. Thx again
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