We have a job that has two IG rec. and a telephone jack (for internet connection) in a Class 1/Div.1 area.Apparently the estimator bid the job without pricing/locating all the material because today no one at the shop was able to locate an explosion proof phone jack.I have installed xp phones before but have never run across an xp phone jack or data jack.Not asking anyone to endorse any product,but does it exist? The equipment is not on the job yet.
Explosionproof Data Jack
- Thread starter shawn474
- Start date
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hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
As far as I know there is no such animal. This is probably because whatever is going to plug into it isn't explosion proof. I've seen this before with paint mixing computers.
-Hal
As far as I know there is no such animal. This is probably because whatever is going to plug into it isn't explosion proof. I've seen this before with paint mixing computers.
-Hal
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
Just as an update, I had been in contact with Shawn privately and indeed this is a paint mixing computer. I was asked this same question about an explosion proof telephone or data jack by a fellow contractor and told him the same as I told Shawn. I had not actually seen the system but today I had that opportunity.
The system consists of a flat screen display, input "keys" and a scale for weighing a can of paint. This is packaged as a single unit. There is also a conventional PC type CPU. The Scale, display and input unit is intrinsically safe and listed for div 1 class 1 environment. There is a long multi-conductor cable that connects it to the CPU.
The CPU is not listed for div 1 class 1 and must be located outside of that environment, hence the long cable. In fact I am told that there is a fiber optic option available if necessary for runs up to 30 feet to the remote CPU.
The CPU is, of course, where the modem or NIC is located so there is no need for explosion proof jacks or receptacles.
The question does come up though as how to properly pass the multiconductor cable through the wall from the div 1 class 1 environment with connectors attached.
-Hal
Just as an update, I had been in contact with Shawn privately and indeed this is a paint mixing computer. I was asked this same question about an explosion proof telephone or data jack by a fellow contractor and told him the same as I told Shawn. I had not actually seen the system but today I had that opportunity.
The system consists of a flat screen display, input "keys" and a scale for weighing a can of paint. This is packaged as a single unit. There is also a conventional PC type CPU. The Scale, display and input unit is intrinsically safe and listed for div 1 class 1 environment. There is a long multi-conductor cable that connects it to the CPU.
The CPU is not listed for div 1 class 1 and must be located outside of that environment, hence the long cable. In fact I am told that there is a fiber optic option available if necessary for runs up to 30 feet to the remote CPU.
The CPU is, of course, where the modem or NIC is located so there is no need for explosion proof jacks or receptacles.
The question does come up though as how to properly pass the multiconductor cable through the wall from the div 1 class 1 environment with connectors attached.
-Hal
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
I need more information, but I believe I can help you.
Which figure in Article 516 most accurately describes the installation? (This is mostly curiosity, but it may be relevant)
How is the multi-conductor cable terminated at the Division 1 equipment? What we are looking for is how ignitible vapors are prevented from entering the cable.
What is the specific construction of the multi-conductor cable;i.e., how is it marked and listed?
Does the connection at the CPU have an IS barrier?
I need more information, but I believe I can help you.
Which figure in Article 516 most accurately describes the installation? (This is mostly curiosity, but it may be relevant)
How is the multi-conductor cable terminated at the Division 1 equipment? What we are looking for is how ignitible vapors are prevented from entering the cable.
What is the specific construction of the multi-conductor cable;i.e., how is it marked and listed?
Does the connection at the CPU have an IS barrier?
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
Bob, I don't think this would be covered by 516. This is a room where paint cans are stored, opened and mixed and paint guns are filled. The paint booth or application area is adjacent but not connected. That area would be covered by 516. This is definitely a class I div 1 location per 500.5(B)(1)(1) also FPN (1)& (3) though.
As for your other questions about the cable, I don't know. Since all is listed for the application these things were considered I'm sure. I would think that you could use a sealing fitting on the inside and some conduit large enough to pass the connectors to go through the concrete wall.
These guys (the paint rep) installed the system without regard with the CPU sitting on the floor of the paint room and the cable all neatly coiled up with an extension cord for power.
Well, when you consider the Home Depot shop lights on the ceiling wired with zip cord that's about par!
I know this one is a lost cause but for my own curiosity I'm thinking about how I would do it if it were up to me and Shawn may be facing the same thing. I asked if there are any installation instructions that may detail any of this but I'm told that nobody ever saw them because they didn't install it.
-Hal
Bob, I don't think this would be covered by 516. This is a room where paint cans are stored, opened and mixed and paint guns are filled. The paint booth or application area is adjacent but not connected. That area would be covered by 516. This is definitely a class I div 1 location per 500.5(B)(1)(1) also FPN (1)& (3) though.
As for your other questions about the cable, I don't know. Since all is listed for the application these things were considered I'm sure. I would think that you could use a sealing fitting on the inside and some conduit large enough to pass the connectors to go through the concrete wall.
These guys (the paint rep) installed the system without regard with the CPU sitting on the floor of the paint room and the cable all neatly coiled up with an extension cord for power.
Well, when you consider the Home Depot shop lights on the ceiling wired with zip cord that's about par!I know this one is a lost cause but for my own curiosity I'm thinking about how I would do it if it were up to me and Shawn may be facing the same thing. I asked if there are any installation instructions that may detail any of this but I'm told that nobody ever saw them because they didn't install it.
-Hal
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
Eliminating 516 makes little difference really. I was just curious. The only concern I would have left would be the cable interface at the CPU. I'd make sure there was an IS barrier and no potential "backfeed."
There should be a "control drawing" per 504.10 along with the other documents required under 500.4 It probably would have cleared up a lot of issues. The apparent lack of it is both an 500.4 and OSHA Process Safety Management violation.
-Bob
That's exactly what I would do
Eliminating 516 makes little difference really. I was just curious. The only concern I would have left would be the cable interface at the CPU. I'd make sure there was an IS barrier and no potential "backfeed."
There should be a "control drawing" per 504.10 along with the other documents required under 500.4 It probably would have cleared up a lot of issues. The apparent lack of it is both an 500.4 and OSHA Process Safety Management violation.
-Bob
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
A Major paint supplier is selling this paint system and with no regard have installed it in the paint mixing room,which is a Class 1.Div. 1 area.I managed to snap a couple pictures before the stuff hit the fan,I am hesitant to post any of the pics.I waited for the inspector until lunch today,he was called a couple days ago I guess they're busy.The maintenance man for this national auto body chain tells me that they put these computers in all their paint mixing rooms,I told him he is lucky no one has been killed yet.It is a regular HP computer and moniter with a keyboard in the drawer of a metal desk.The scale has a small box that is marked intrinsically safe,the Sherwin-Williams installer has it screwed to the wall and a ground wire is hanging from it.As we contracted to put the phone jack in the room and hadn't seen the equipment yet,the cable is hanging out the bottom of a seal off through a cord connector (per my supervisor,a Master Electrician).Hoping to meet with the inspector Monday,so I don't have to tell them again to take the computer out of the mixing room,they are getting mad at me. :roll:
A Major paint supplier is selling this paint system and with no regard have installed it in the paint mixing room,which is a Class 1.Div. 1 area.I managed to snap a couple pictures before the stuff hit the fan,I am hesitant to post any of the pics.I waited for the inspector until lunch today,he was called a couple days ago I guess they're busy.The maintenance man for this national auto body chain tells me that they put these computers in all their paint mixing rooms,I told him he is lucky no one has been killed yet.It is a regular HP computer and moniter with a keyboard in the drawer of a metal desk.The scale has a small box that is marked intrinsically safe,the Sherwin-Williams installer has it screwed to the wall and a ground wire is hanging from it.As we contracted to put the phone jack in the room and hadn't seen the equipment yet,the cable is hanging out the bottom of a seal off through a cord connector (per my supervisor,a Master Electrician).Hoping to meet with the inspector Monday,so I don't have to tell them again to take the computer out of the mixing room,they are getting mad at me. :roll:
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
) One reason that this has gone as far as it has it because of the way the electrical engineer put it on the print,it very clearly has two IG rec. and a data port in the paint mixing room. (along with a motor for a paint mixer)
No drawings of any kind,no documentation.(yet)That is the reason I posted the question on this Forum. (I read drawings quite well.
) One reason that this has gone as far as it has it because of the way the electrical engineer put it on the print,it very clearly has two IG rec. and a data port in the paint mixing room. (along with a motor for a paint mixer)
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
I can't imagine UL listing this system without a control drawing. The equipment manufacturer has to have one somewhere if its listed as intrinsically safe.
I can't imagine UL listing this system without a control drawing. The equipment manufacturer has to have one somewhere if its listed as intrinsically safe.
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
That was a Code and OHSA violation too.
That was a Code and OHSA violation too.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
I replied to Shawn in his PM that I had hoped his experience would be better than mine. I guess not.
-Hal
I replied to Shawn in his PM that I had hoped his experience would be better than mine. I guess not.
-Hal
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
Yes I read that too,the thing is the scale (Mettler I believe was the name on it) plugs into the computer (with a USB-type cord,I'm not a computer guy) and runs off of it,it does not plug into my receptacle or anything I installed.I imagine the guy who put the computer in the room has the drawing.The big argument today was over the fact that the computer,when plugged into the Killark receptacle would not work because the proper 'twist to turn on' cap was not available.As I explained to hbiss,the company also balked at paying us to interlock the co2 fire suppression system so it would shut the electrical on the paint booth down in case of fire.Head maintenance man told me none of their other stores has the interlock.
Edit: here is the scale.
http://www.mt.com/mt/product_detail/product.jsp?m=t&tr=U0NDU3MzcwMS1QfDc2NjU1NzM3MDEtQ3w1NjY1NTczNzAxLUN8Mz&key=M4NDg4NjM1NT
[ July 16, 2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: shawn474 ]
Yes I read that too,the thing is the scale (Mettler I believe was the name on it) plugs into the computer (with a USB-type cord,I'm not a computer guy) and runs off of it,it does not plug into my receptacle or anything I installed.I imagine the guy who put the computer in the room has the drawing.The big argument today was over the fact that the computer,when plugged into the Killark receptacle would not work because the proper 'twist to turn on' cap was not available.As I explained to hbiss,the company also balked at paying us to interlock the co2 fire suppression system so it would shut the electrical on the paint booth down in case of fire.Head maintenance man told me none of their other stores has the interlock.
Edit: here is the scale.
http://www.mt.com/mt/product_detail/product.jsp?m=t&tr=U0NDU3MzcwMS1QfDc2NjU1NzM3MDEtQ3w1NjY1NTczNzAxLUN8Mz&key=M4NDg4NjM1NT
[ July 16, 2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: shawn474 ]
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
This is especially true, if what they want WAS correct two or more Code cycles ago when they were active in the business and they still consider themselves "experts."
"We've always done it this way - we've never done it that way," are the two toughest arguments to overcome for those of us who simply want to do something right.
This is especially true, if what they want WAS correct two or more Code cycles ago when they were active in the business and they still consider themselves "experts."
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
From the manufacturer's installation manual:
From the manufacturer's installation manual:
Be VERY VERY? careful here. I can practically guarantee the "peripheral unit" (CPU) isn't IS and doesn't have a barrier either.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
...interlock the co2 fire suppression system so it would shut the electrical on the paint booth down in case of fire.
Not sure what shutting down the electrical in the paint booth would do unless there are ventilation blowers that would be shut down also. Wouldn't help with the computer situation.
Looks like that scale is the only part of the system that can be in the paint room. Not sure that it would even have to be connected to the computer since it has its own display. I think that in your case the computer is there more for convenience than anything else but I've not seen these things work.
-Hal
...interlock the co2 fire suppression system so it would shut the electrical on the paint booth down in case of fire.
Not sure what shutting down the electrical in the paint booth would do unless there are ventilation blowers that would be shut down also. Wouldn't help with the computer situation.
Looks like that scale is the only part of the system that can be in the paint room. Not sure that it would even have to be connected to the computer since it has its own display. I think that in your case the computer is there more for convenience than anything else but I've not seen these things work.
-Hal
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
There is a blower on the roof that blows 200F air down into the paint booth and two 2hp motors (powered from a VFD inside the Unit on the roof) on top of the paint booth that suck air through a duct system that draws the air down through a grated floor.If it starts burning the electricity needs to be cut off,if it spreads the guys w/the hoses would be surprised.The scale is powered from the computer,the CPU is the only thing it hooks to. (in this application,anyway)
Edit: You are correct,the only reason they want the 'puter in the mix room is to save steps.
[ July 16, 2004, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: shawn474 ]
There is a blower on the roof that blows 200F air down into the paint booth and two 2hp motors (powered from a VFD inside the Unit on the roof) on top of the paint booth that suck air through a duct system that draws the air down through a grated floor.If it starts burning the electricity needs to be cut off,if it spreads the guys w/the hoses would be surprised.The scale is powered from the computer,the CPU is the only thing it hooks to. (in this application,anyway)
Edit: You are correct,the only reason they want the 'puter in the mix room is to save steps.
[ July 16, 2004, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: shawn474 ]
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
Is there a IS barrier at the computer?
Is there a IS barrier at the computer?
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
I snapped a few pictures,was asked politely what was I doing,voiced my opinion (again) that the AHJ was going to have a field day in the mix room and an argument ensued.I am done with the job except for a couple of items that are on back order so I called for an above ceiling inspection in the office area and went home.The equipment was installed first thing this morning and I didn't get to study it.
I do believe there is but right now it is a moot point is it not? The IS barrier would be in the same room as the CPU,making it useless,if I understand correctly.The CPU is in the Class 1/Div. 1 area.What would the IS barrier be barring?
I snapped a few pictures,was asked politely what was I doing,voiced my opinion (again) that the AHJ was going to have a field day in the mix room and an argument ensued.I am done with the job except for a couple of items that are on back order so I called for an above ceiling inspection in the office area and went home.The equipment was installed first thing this morning and I didn't get to study it.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Explosionproof Data Jack
...interlock the co2 fire suppression system so it would shut the electrical on the paint booth down in case of fire.
Sorry, I misunderstood you. I still thought we were still on the paint mixing area thing. Yes, certainly the blowers for he paint booth should shut down unless the AHJ or fire marshall wants them to remain on. If the booth is gas fired the gas should shut down. This should work like a restaurant kitchen.
-Hal
...interlock the co2 fire suppression system so it would shut the electrical on the paint booth down in case of fire.
Sorry, I misunderstood you. I still thought we were still on the paint mixing area thing. Yes, certainly the blowers for he paint booth should shut down unless the AHJ or fire marshall wants them to remain on. If the booth is gas fired the gas should shut down. This should work like a restaurant kitchen.
-Hal
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