Extending a 2 wire (ungrounded) circuit to add another receptacle?

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mattri

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Conversation between a buddy and I, here's the gist:

Suppose an old 2 wire system, no eqc going back to the panel. Original 2 prong recep is broken, needs replaced. According to 406.4(D)2b that non-grounding recep can be replaced with a GFCI type receptacle and marked as No Equipment Ground. (assuming no AFCI protection is required, focusing solely on the grounding aspect)

As this is allowed we assume that code is requiring the GFCI protection in lieu of proper grounding through a separate eqc, thus the receptacle may be used with a certain level of protection provided by the GFCI and this installation is considered "safe".

Here's the meat of the question:

Could you extend that circuit, say cut in a recep 4' above the one described above without adding a ground?

250.130(C)(6) references 406.4(D)2b under branch circuit extensions, not just replacements.

Thoughts?
 
If I understand the meat of your question, Yes you can extend the circuit without the EGC and make sure that portion is GFCI protected.
 
mattri said:
Could you extend that circuit, say cut in a recep 4' above the one described above without adding a ground?

250.130(C)(6) references 406.4(D)2b under branch circuit extensions, not just replacements.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...



250.130(C)(6) is for ungrounded systems.
 
mattri said:
Conversation between a buddy and I, here's the gist:

Suppose an old 2 wire system, no eqc going back to the panel. Original 2 prong recep is broken, needs replaced. According to 406.4(D)2b that non-grounding recep can be replaced with a GFCI type receptacle and marked as No Equipment Ground. (assuming no AFCI protection is required, focusing solely on the grounding aspect)

As this is allowed we assume that code is requiring the GFCI protection in lieu of proper grounding through a separate eqc, thus the receptacle may be used with a certain level of protection provided by the GFCI and this installation is considered "safe".

Here's the meat of the question:

Could you extend that circuit, say cut in a recep 4' above the one described above without adding a ground?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

No, you cannot.


I agree w/ Dennis Alwon above, you can only extend an old 2wire ckt if your extension and devices are connected to an egc connected to any of the locations referenced in 250.130(C)(1 thru 5)


In this case, disregard the informational note at the bottom of 250.130(c) b/c 406.4(D)(2)(b) only allows you to replace an old 2w receptacle w/ gfci, not extend the circuit.
 
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user 100 said:
No, you cannot.


I agree w/ Dennis Alwon above, you can only extend an old 2wire ckt if your extension and devices are connected to an egc connected to any of the locations referenced in 250.130(C)(1 thru 5).....
Click to expand...

edward said:
If I understand the meat of your question, Yes you can extend the circuit without the EGC and make sure that portion is GFCI protected.
Click to expand...

I was using 250.130(C) to back up my statement and for many years I thought that has been the case. But after this thread and further details reading of the code section I agree that 2 wire extension is NOT allowed with just GFCI protection.
 
edward said:
I was using 250.130(C) to back up my statement and for many years I thought that has been the case. But after this thread and further details reading of the code section I agree that 2 wire extension is NOT allowed with just GFCI protection.
Click to expand...

When I read 250.130 (c) I read "shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following" not...."shall be connected to any of the following".....The "shall be permitted" seems to leave this open ended, seemingly leaving the discretion to the JHA or the JW installer. I agree that the EGC in the new NMB should be grounded, but I don't think there is a solid argument indicating it must be grounded. We have been wrestling with the language in our office on this one for a few weeks.....I would love to see the code section that says "shall be" not "shall be permitted".
 
magictolight.com said:
When I read 250.130 (c) I read "shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following" not...."shall be connected to any of the following".....The "shall be permitted" seems to leave this open ended, seemingly leaving the discretion to the JHA or the JW installer. I agree that the EGC in the new NMB should be grounded, but I don't think there is a solid argument indicating it must be grounded. We have been wrestling with the language in our office on this one for a few weeks.....I would love to see the code section that says "shall be" not "shall be permitted".
Click to expand...

The real answer to this should be followed by this question:

Are you allowed to extend a non grounded circuit? ( Which is what one would be effectively doing if they did as the op suggested with the gfci/ new nm).

The answer to that question is, of course, NO. Note that there is no code article/exception that says you can ext these ckts w/out egc....
The 406 article is strictly about receptacle replacements and says nothing about branch ckt extensions....

I think when it says "shall be permitted" it is merely telling you about where you can land the new egc.
 
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user 100 said:
The real answer to this should be followed by this question:

Are you allowed to extend a non grounded circuit? ( Which is what one would be effectively doing if they did as the op suggested with the gfci/ new nm).

The answer to that question is, of course, NO. Note that there is no code article/exception that says you can ext these ckts w/out egc....
The 406 article is strictly about receptacle replacements and says nothing about branch ckt extensions....

I think when it says "shall be permitted" it is merely telling you about where you can land the new egc.
Click to expand...

The truth is you are 100% correct. I was able to answer this last night at article 406.4 (A) Receptacle outlets shall be of the grounding type unless they are a replacement......and 406.4 (B) To be grounded. Receptacles that have grounding contacts shall be connected to an EGC.......250.130 (C) sites the methods of grounding and the FPN #2 takes us back to 250.130 (C) Non grounding receptacle replacement or branch circuit extensions-which tells us how we are permitted to ground the receptacle.

GFCI protection is not a legal or allowed method of extending a circuit. Of course, when extending that circuit, it must be AFCI protected 95% of the time by 210.12 (A) in a dwelling.

Good conversation. Makes some extensions in older homes VERY expensive!
 
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