Externally run ground wire

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sevlander

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We were brought into a job were another contractor has run a 2" EMT with four 3/0 thhn and one # 4 ground feeding 480v to 400v transformer for a printing press. The manufacturer required a ground matching the 3/0 conductor size. The contractor ran a 3/0thhn externally along the pipe back to the source panel. I don't believe this is allowable. Is this considered "routed with" the phase conductors(NEC250-30 A 8). I believe it must be in the same conduit. If it is allowed, the # 4ground should be disconnected at the very least. Any thoughts?
 
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Look at 250.120 (C)........I believe it is legal to run the EGC as they did. The #4 EGC although redundant could remain, IMO. Now if we were talking about the GROUNDED conductor, your interpretation would be correct.
 
Confused

Confused

Thanks guys for the imput...I'm not sure if I'm convinced or confused. I've got some reading and digesting of the info to do, but now I at least have some direction of where to read in the NEC. Let me know if you have more thoughts on the subject. Scott
 
As far as the original question, would there really be any code issue if the internal #4 is left connected and the external jumper is also installed. The #4 would cover the code rules and the 3/0 is not required by the code. If the code does not require it and there is already a code compliant EGC, is the 3/0 covered by the code rules?
 
Can't one argue that a 2" conduit, i.e., one sized for the conductors, is at least equivalent to the required EGC?

Or do the specifications specifically specify (I think I just spit on myself) a copper conductor?
 
same size

same size

Manufacturer's written instructions require the SAME exact size GEC as the current carrying wires, crazy,but it's their machine.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
The #4 would cover the code rules and the 3/0 is not required by the code. If the code does not require it and there is already a code compliant EGC, is the 3/0 covered by the code rules?

Thats a great way of looking at it but out here in right field, i see it as two parallel grounding conductors not of the same size. Also 250 102(E) limits the length to 6' where run on the outside of racrway.
Rick
 
RUWired said:
Also 250 102(E) limits the length to 6' where run on the outside of racrway.

Rick

Rick, I believe 250.102(E) addresses equipment bonding jumpers. The OP referred to the EGC run on the outside of the raceway. I still think 250.120(C) and 300.3(B) are contradictory........
 
A/A Fuel GTX said:
Rick, I believe 250.102(E) addresses equipment bonding jumpers. The OP referred to the EGC run on the outside of the raceway. I still think 250.120(C) and 300.3(B) are contradictory........

300.3(B) + 250.134(B) is the general rule.
250.134(B) lists 250.130(C) as an exception only allowed under specific circumstances.
250.130(C) should be viewed as exceptions to the general rule.
250.120(C) is giving further installation instructions when following 250.130(C).
An exception is not contradicting a rule, it's modifying a rule when you are in specific circumstances.

250.102(E) comes into play after the required equipment grounding conductor or conduit is installed properly and a gap in the path still exists. . The equipment bonding jumper just fills in for a situation where the properly installed equipment grounding conductor doesn't get the job done.

don_resqcapt19 said:
As far as the original question, would there really be any code issue if the internal #4 is left connected and the external jumper is also installed. The #4 would cover the code rules and the 3/0 is not required by the code. If the code does not require it and there is already a code compliant EGC, is the 3/0 covered by the code rules?

In principle, I would agree that a 3/0 that's supplementary/voluntary shouldn't need the same restrictions as the required and installed conductor/conduit. . But in codespeak, 300.3(B) uses the words "where used". . It doesn't say "where required". . The 3/0 is not required but it is used. . Plus this question goes beyond just code requirements.

sevlander said:
Manufacturer's written instructions require the SAME exact size GEC as the current carrying wires, crazy,but it's their machine.

It's required by the manufacturer and should comply with 300.3(B) + 250.134(B).
 
David......Thanks for the explaination. Geez, maybe I should have been a lawyer before becoming an electrician:-?
 
not legal

not legal

Thanks for all the imput. From what I read in the NEC handbook of all the articles quoted,I find nothing that would make this an exceptable installation. As far as I'm concerned it needs to be redone with all conductors in the same conduit. Thanks, Scott
 
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