Face Shield

[Ravenvalor]

Hello,

I saw the video about Donnie's accident for the third time and am finally thinking about personal protective gear.
Can someone recommend a good face shield that is easy to put on and take off?
Also, are the flame retardent shirts worth the investment?
Last but not least, is the type of gear described above just as important for residential type panel work as it is for commercial panel work?

Thanks and have a good Sunday.

 

[captainwireman]

I normally would purchase Salisbury gear if I was involved with ordering. It is important to understand any face shield is not arc flash rated. Check out the OSHA web site. I think it will give you the information as to why arc flash protection is so important. Since I did not have to pay for it, I once tried to burn an arc flash rated shirt and I did not have much success. If this was for my personal protection, I would spare no expense and get the best. If I was testing equipment for a company, I would quit before I used anything inferior. Arc flash injury is horrible. You don't want to go there even if you have been working live equipment all your career.

Arc flash is a somewhat complicated subject very much worth learning. You should get schooled up on it. Is it needed in residential work? Take the feeders and cross-phase the wires. The available fault current determines the level of hazard. All that are involved should know about this subject.

 

[Ravenvalor]

I normally would purchase Salisbury gear if I was involved with ordering. It is important to understand any face shield is not arc flash rated. Check out the OSHA web site. I think it will give you the information as to why arc flash protection is so important. Since I did not have to pay for it, I once tried to burn an arc flash rated shirt and I did not have much success. If this was for my personal protection, I would spare no expense and get the best. If I was testing equipment for a company, I would quit before I used anything inferior. Arc flash injury is horrible. You don't want to go there even if you have been working live equipment all your career.

Arc flash is a somewhat complicated subject very much worth learning. You should get schooled up on it. Is it needed in residential work? Take the feeders and cross-phase the wires. The available fault current determines the level of hazard. All that are involved should know about this subject.

$75.00 for the face shield looks like a decent price.

Thank you,

 

[Ravenvalor]

A good invention would be a face shield that is arc fault rated.

 

[jim dungar]

A good invention would be a face shield that is arc fault rated.

Already been done. The arc flash rated ones do require you to wear safety glasses as they are not impact rated.

 

[LEO2854]

Hello,

I saw the video about Donnie's accident for the third time and am finally thinking about personal protective gear.
Can someone recommend a good face shield that is easy to put on and take off?
Also, are the flame retardent shirts worth the investment?
Last but not least, is the type of gear described above just as important for residential type panel work as it is for commercial panel work?

Thanks and have a good Sunday.

For those who have not seen the video.....

 

[LEO2854]

Hello,

I saw the video about Donnie's accident for the third time and am finally thinking about personal protective gear.
Can someone recommend a good face shield that is easy to put on and take off?
Also, are the flame retardent shirts worth the investment?
Last but not least, is the type of gear described above just as important for residential type panel work as it is for commercial panel work?

Thanks and have a good Sunday.

The second one...

His Web site here.
http://www.donniesaccident.com/

 

[LEO2854]

Hello,

I saw the video about Donnie's accident for the third time and am finally thinking about personal protective gear.
Can someone recommend a good face shield that is easy to put on and take off?
Also, are the flame retardent shirts worth the investment?
Last but not least, is the type of gear described above just as important for residential type panel work as it is for commercial panel work?

Thanks and have a good Sunday.

Also nothing will protect you from this.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Hello,

I saw the video about Donnie's accident for the third time and am finally thinking about personal protective gear.
Can someone recommend a good face shield that is easy to put on and take off?
Also, are the flame retardent shirts worth the investment?
Last but not least, is the type of gear described above just as important for residential type panel work as it is for commercial panel work?

Thanks and have a good Sunday.

there are some folks on here who are well worth listening to,
regarding this type of protection. the word "Zog" comes to mind.

a lot has to do with the available fault current delivered by the
POCO. the bolted fault current computation letter i got from
socal edison for the project i'm currently putting in, was calced
at 32,804 amps (symmetrical). that is for 3 phase 3 wire 480.
so, if you hard fault this, it's gonna make a spark.
twice that oomph is common, and can run upwards of 100,000 amps.

from that, an arc fault survey can determine the fault current
for each piece of equipment in an industrial setting, and the
required level of PPE. that information is supposed to be on
the panel door, so you can dress appropriately.

when i had to drop the dime on this stuff, i got a 40 calorie suit,
the reason was the DWP instructor who taught me, said that
if the arc flash incident exceeds 40 calories, the pressure wave
from it is most likely to be lethal. suits up to 100 calories are
available, and some of them even have little blowers on the back
to force air into the hood, so you can pretend to breathe.

your employer should furnish this equipment. it's his responsibility.
wearing it is yours.

i wore mine today.
the salsbury 40 cal suit i bought cost $1057
the gloves were $232 with protectors and bag.

so, you are in about $1,400. as i said, your employer is required
to provide this stuff if it is needed.

a face shield that isn't arc proof can be worse than nothing at all.
an arc blast is bad enough. having to pick burnt plastic out of your
face in the burn ward is worse.

the minimum salsbury face shield, not high calorie, just basic stuff
you might use on a residential panel, was about $170, 7 years ago.

these guys can steer you in the right direction for your needs, once
you determine what they are.

http://www.burlingtonsafety.com/

 

[captainwireman]

Here are some links you may want to read:
http://www.geindustrial.com/sites/g...c-Flash-Article_GE_Industrial_Solutions_0.pdf
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NEC-HTML/HTML/What-is-Arc-Flash~20040512.php
https://www.osha.gov/dte/grant_materials/fy07/sh-16615-07/arc_flash_handout.pdf

According to OSHA there are only three situations that do not require an arc fault assessment.
1) Where there is no engineered disconnect available
2) Where disconnecting the power presents a greater hazard to life and safety
3) Under 50 volts

All other situations require an assessment. This is a broad reaching statement. One can legitimately claim that even flipping a switch rated circuit breaker for lighting or taking the cover plate off a box is included. Situations like this would fall into the category of past history. If no one ever got injured doing such tasks, OSHA would allow without additional protective equipment.

 

[captainwireman]

Correction, OSHA may allow if it is proven no hazard is present doing the specified task.

 

[69gp]

I tried to upload a chart but the file is to big, just shows what the incident energy , PPE required and working distances on a project that I was working on. Basically all I wanted to say is yes it is good that you want safety equipment but its not a one size fits all. All the equipment listed below is within 20' of each other. As you can see some of the equipment only has a cal rating of 5.2. This will not cause serious burns. But the switchboard has a cal rating of 218 that will burn a 40 cal suit like its tissue paper. Like others have said its the owners responsibility to do the analysis, Train you in the use and provide all equipment to safely due your job.



* 1st column is Buss KV
** the 2nd column is the arc flash boundary
*** the 3rd column is the working distance
**** 4th column is the (cal/cm2)
5th coloumn is the PPE required

Buss kV ** *** (cal/cm2) PPE level
480V Switchboard 0.48 340 18 218 Dangerous! (*N9)
Gnd Transformer Bus 0.48 4 18 0.09 Category 0
Inverter 1 Bus 0.48 44 18 5.2 Category 2
Inverter 2 Bus 0.48 44 18 5.2 Category 2
Inverter 3 Bus 0.48 44 18 5.2 Category 2
Inverter 4 Bus 0.48 44 18 5.2 Category 2
Inverter 5 Bus 0.48 44 18 5.2 Category 2
Inverter 6 Bus 0.48 44 18 5.2 Category 2
Transformer Primary Bus 13.80 224 36 7.1 Category 2 (*N2) (*N9)
Transformer Secondary Bus 0.48 431 18 219 Dangerous! (*N9)
Utility Bus 13.80 228 36 7.2 Category 2 (*N2) (*N9)




*N9 Note Analysis This study demonstrates that most of the busses in the PV system are a
Category 2 hazard. The transformer secondary bus and the 480V main bus are
outside the maximum risk category 4 as defined in NFPA 70E, having an incident
energy level exceeding 40 calories per square centimeter. These locations can
only be safely worked when de-energized .

 

[renosteinke]

I am a personal fan of PERSONAL protective equipment. That is, stuff that is MINE, that I control the storage and use of. Let's take your thoughts one at a time ...

Elvex has a very innovative line of face shields. Look here: http://www.elvex.com/face-protection-start.htm

Work clothing can be a touchy topic. These days, it seems that the moment you buy some, somebody changes their requirements and you have to start over. "Fire resistant" was only the first step; now some clowns also want (fire resistant) reflective panels too!

I long ago adopted "do no harm" work clothing. That is, ordinary 100% cotton shirts and trousers, as opposed to the cheap polyester 'work clothing' that made burn injuries worse. Most times, that's enough. I just "went Union," and that's what the contract calls for. "Rated" clothing is a job-specific, employer-provided item.

Salisbury is a fine firm, but hardly the final word.

I do find it worthwhile to buy specifically designed work clothing, as opposed to just the usual Wal-Mart stuff. These days, Duluth Trading is my vendor of choice. Their stuff has lots of extra features that make them, well, simply better.
I like "cargo pants" with double knees, and pockets for slipping in knee pads.
For 'rough' jobs I like the long-tail T-shirts with pockets. Nicer sites get the long-tail Polos with pockets.
I'm a real fan of tool vests. Mine (Skillers) don't seem to be available anymore. Tool-Pak has an interesting take on the idea ( http://www.toolpak.com/html/SAFETYtoolvest.html ). Makes working off ladders, climbing a lot easier.

 

[meternerd]

Been a power company electrician for over 40 years. Up until the last few years (maybe 10 or 15), PPE wasn't a real big issue. Then along came Arc Flash stuff. My world changed, but the hazards were still the same. It was really hard for me to go from working hot 480 switchgear barehanded to wearing a 40 Cal Arc Flash suit, safety glasses, hearing protection, 20,000 volt Primary rated gloves, etc. But that's what was called for on some category 3 jobs. Needless to say, my job as an electrician, doing troubleshooting on 480 MCC's and substation equipment became almost impossible. But.....the company provided the PPE and we were required to wear it. Failure to do so meant any injuries were on my checking account. Not good. So, I guess my point is, just because it's a pain to use sometimes, DO IT! I have a friend (now blind) who was working in a 480 switchgear in a nuclear plant, checking phase rotation. When he picked up the meter to see the display, a wire pulled out and went phase to phase. The arc lasted around 20 seconds and finally tripped the relay feeding the 4160/480 transformer downstairs. Flown out in a helicopter and was never back to work.

That was way before PPE was required, but it would have saved him from a life of pain and darkness.

I'm sure we've all got horror stories, but I figure, if you learn from other people's mistakes, you don't have to make the same ones over again.

Sorry for the sermon, but it's a dangerous world out there. It's just a job. Why risk it?

 

[fmtjfw]

When working as a maintenance electrician in a school system I always wore 100% cotton underwear (less elastic) and FR2 long sleeved shirt and long trousers. Also safety glasses. In the rare case that I worked on >240V or >200A hot (diagnosing problems, not fixing them) I'd add another layer of FR2 (probably bringing it up to FR3), a safety helmet with FR shield, and Nomex balaclava to cover my face and beard).

I also used 1000V rated meterman's gloves, 1000V rated hand tools and 600V class IV meters.

I'm not sure that ordinary single dwelling services have enough available energy to produce an arc-flash incident (let the brick-batting begin).

 

[meternerd]

No bricks and only a small bat.....it all depends on the service. Many times the transformer is large and supplies multiple dwellings. If a customer who is very close to the transformer and has a short service drop has a fault, the current can be very high. Fuses are sized for total load, so if other customers are lightly loaded, it takes quite a bit to blow the fuse. Hard to say what the fault current could be, but a 12A primary fuse at 7200v means possibly over 80,000 watts until the fuse blows. We require a face shield, FR clothing and secondary (1200V) rubber gloves to pull a residential meter.

 

[fmtjfw]

Arc Flash Info

Arc Flash Info

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NEC-HTML/HTML/What-is-Arc-Flash~20040512.php

http://www.openelectrical.org/wiki/index.php?title=Arc_Fault

For "residential" 240V and below, 25kA and below, clearing time 0.03 sec or faster -- NFPA70E 2009 recommends HR0 or HR1.
For 277V to 600V, 65kA and below, clearing time 0.03 sec or faster -- recommends HR1 or HR2.

NFPA70E recommends FR ratings of 0 to 2 corresponding to the HR numbers. That is how I chose FR2 as everyday wear.

If you can get the impedance and KVA of the transformer and size and length of the service drop/lateral, you can easily calculate the fault current.

http://apps.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/Short%20Circuit?TNR=White%20Papers|Short%20Circuit|generic