Factory / Industrial installations

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EIT42

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Houston, Texas, USA
I was wondering if anyone could comment on whether or not a permit is required and whether the work in the following 2 scenarios must be done by a licensed electrician.

Scenario 1:

We want to install new equipment at an outdoor location approximately 300 feet from the closest 480V 3 phase supply in the factory grounds. The new equipment would require about 43A. We have an existing breaker already available in the board, that used to supply power to equipment that is now redundant on no longer in service. This will require digging a trench of about 280 feet from the existing breaker to the disconnect switch for the new equipment. I was thinking of running the cable (oversized to factor in voltdrop) in a PVC conduit, buried about 3 feet deep. First question: is this deep enough or is this too deep? Or should I use galvanized pipe?I plan on calling the 811 number to mark any buried utilities in the area, and hire an independent company to use ground penetrating radar to evaluate if there is any factory utilities beneath the area were the trench is planned. We have factory electricians, but they are very busy, and not licensed. But if we used our electricians, could we do this job ourselves withing needing to pull a city permit, or have inspections done? Does NEC treat factory installations a little different for residential installations? Obviously we will follow factory lockout procedures for this. Would that be adequate. We're also thinking of having a local contractor to the full turn key (dig the trench, install pipe and cable and connect). If we used a contractor, would they need to pull a city permit, or use a licensed electrician?

Scenario 2:

On the opposite side of the factory, we plan to install a second piece of equipment. There is no nearby 480V source, but there is a nearby factory owned 34.5kV overhead line. The metered utility interconnect that this overhead line connects to is several hundred feet away and has a pole mounted disconnect switch on our side (and utility side). Could we install 3 cluster mounted pole PT's (obviously following the factories lock out tag out procedures), or perhaps a small pad mount transformer connected to our nearby overhead line, without requiring to draw a city permit, and do the work with our unlicensed electricians? Like wise if we used a contractor, could they do the work without needing to draw a city permit or use a licensed electrician? Due to redundant equipment that will no longer run, we already know that the line is sized more than adequately for this new installation.

The above questions are more about the legalities than the technical requirements. I would appreciate your feedback on this.
Oh - This is for an installation in Houston Texas.
 
Welcome to the forum.

There are a lot of people here that can answer questions about electrical installs, far fewer that can answer questions about electrical laws in Texas. I would want a licensed and vetted electrician doing the work if it were my plant.
 
I've worked at municipal wastewater/water plants most of my career and have never pulled a permit. We are exempt by NC law. I have no clue about a factory in Houston Texas though. What do your house electricians say? Have they ever pulled permits in the past.

I do most of the electrical work at my plant myself. I am very invested in seeing a successful outcome and I take the time to research and do proper installs. Having said that. I would have no qualms about subbing out the work you describe. Digging a 280' ditch will take a lot of guys a lot of time without the right equipment. If your electricians are already busy why put them behind even more.

For scenario 2.......most def sub that out. I wont touch a thing over 600v. And unless your guys are very experienced doing that kind of work, its safer, probably cheaper and more efficient to get someone who does that day in and day out. How far away is your nearest 480 anyway? What type of load do you need?

Good luck with your project!
 
Having worked in large industrial plants in several states for 50+ years, we never had to pull a permit, except maybe for major expansion projects. Can't say for sure about your location but generally, the kind of work you describe is considered to be part of the ongoing plant maintenance and usually may be performed by the maintenance staff as directed by qualified management. Alternately, you can use a contractor to perform such maintenance work; your purchasing department would generally make sure that they are propearly licensed and insured.

With respect to scenario 2, you or your contractor certainly cannot perform work on a line owned by someone else without their explicit permission and understanding how such a connection will be metered. In addition, as mentioned above, any high-voltage work should be performed by a contractor that is qualified and experienced in such work.
 
EIT42 said:
I was wondering if anyone could comment on whether or not a permit is required and whether the work in the following 2 scenarios must be done by a licensed electrician.

Scenario 1:
We're also thinking of having a local contractor to the full turn key (dig the trench, install pipe and cable and connect). If we used a contractor, would they need to pull a city permit, or use a licensed electrician?

Scenario 2:
Like wise if we used a contractor, could they do the work without needing to draw a city permit or use a licensed electrician? Due to redundant equipment that will no longer run, we already know that the line is sized more than adequately for this new installation.
Click to expand...

just for grins.... define the scope of both of these jobs in writing,
and call up a reputable local electrical contractor to give you a price.

for both of them. price them separately.

then ask yourself what is it worth to you to put all this in
yourself. if you have people standing around who can do
this, why do you hire folks to stand around? your in house
guys should be busy with PM's, and troubleshooting, etc.

and, that trench.... let's say you do a good job checking
for buried stuff that needs to stay buried. but lo, and behold,
you break something that nobody caught was there. it happens
to the best folks.

the electrical contractor owns it, and can fix it for free. he is
being paid to take a risk. if you break it.....

long ago, right after the invention of dirt, I was working with
a guy on a bucket wheel, as the apprentice, when he broke
a 8" fire main, that was encased, no less. it took over two
hours to get it turned off.

and that 8" line was NOT there. nobody found it. till we did.
the contractor went broke in two hours.

just a thought.
 
Like Saturn Europa, I too have worked at wastewater plants, and aside from massive upgrades, permits were never pulled. I believe they are considered a utility and exempt from doing so.

For #1, I would not do the trenching in house unless your guys are intimately familiar with it. One plant I worked at decided to trench and lay a new caustic (sodium hydroxide) line. They failed in making one splice, which resulted in almost 2000 gallons of 50% lye leaking underground and into a nearby stream. I can tell you that was NOT easy or cheap to cleanup, and the fines were not pretty to anyone with less than an 8 figure bank account.

as for #2, there is absolutely no way I'd have plant electricians working on 34,500V; it is highly unlikely they are trained to work on equipment of that voltage.

Legal or safe or not, I'd sub out both of these projects.
 
JFletcher said:
Like Saturn Europa, I too have worked at wastewater plants, and aside from massive upgrades, permits were never pulled. I believe they are considered a utility and exempt from doing so.
Click to expand...

Lets hang on here, the OPs question is one that is handled locally so what happens where you live or I live or Saturn E lives has nothing to do with what the rules may be for the OP. :)

Furthermore in my experience just becasue 'no one' pulls permits does not really say what the law requires.

To the OP, you need to contact your local AHJ to get the answer for your area.
 
I will suggest this. In a legalistic way, such work would require permits in many if not most areas. However, in a lot of areas the building departments just do not have the expertise to inspect such installs in any meaningful way so they tend to defer to the plant and don't make a fuss if no permits are pulled.

Some areas it is all about the money and permits are required and a guy from the city comes out and rubber stamps what was done.
 
Insurance also

Insurance also

You have to check with the company insurance also. We could do anything from a panel out, but a EC had to install the panel. We could not change anything in a fire alarm panel or elevator panel even though it was a old frieght elevator.
 
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