Failed Bonding on a 3 year old pool

[bjfowler]

I am seeking some advice on an issue I have recently discovered on my 3 year old fiberglass pool. I noticed a small electrical tingle getting out of the pool a couple of days ago and troubleshooting revealed that my equipotential bond is broken in possibly 3 different places as well as there is a 5 volt Neutral to Earth problem coming from my utilities. The Utility company verified there is a problem and just replaced the entire cables from the transformer to my house since there was a splice when they replaced the pole a few years ago. This did not correct the problem and they are continuing to troubleshoot in the area for a bad neutral connection. I'm not confident they will resolve that problem, but regardless I know I have a bonding problem now that needs to be fixed. In certain areas of the pool, I can measure up to 3 volts AC between the water and the concrete decking. When the pool was installed, I used a copper mesh grid encircling the entire pool tied back to the pool pump and heater bonding terminals 30 feet away. I do not have any handrails or other metallic components anywhere within 30 feet of the pool. The mesh is connected by 8 awg on one end of the pool, opposite the skimmer. The skimmer has a water bond that is connected to the mesh on the other end of the pool. I verified that I have no connection between the skimmer bond and the pump bond terminal anymore. So now the water is not bonded. The concrete (which is fiber reinforced and has no rebar) has cracked at three different places, one on side of the pool a 2 on the other in the expansion joints and separated approximately 1/16 of an inch, where I can measure a voltage drop up to the 3 volts between 2 of the separated slabs. It appears that the shift in the concrete broke the grid. I'm assuming that the only way to fix this is to cut up a section of the concrete at the breaks and reconnect the grid. I'm afraid that it may happen again though or break in a different spot. The grid was placed on top of 5 inches of gravel base which has 4 inches concrete poured on top of it. Was this incorrect? If anyone has suggestions on the best way to proceed, I'm all ears.

 

[bjfowler]

I've been thinking about this a little more and believe that a lightning strike nearby may have caused the break in the equipotential grid and possibly the cracks in the concrete. I would think that copper would stretch instead of break with only a shift of 1/16 of an inch. Now I am considering cutting the concrete all the way around the perimeter of the pool three feet out and repouring with rebar to make the bond.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I have heard of lightning hitting a home and traveled all the way to the pool. I believe it blew in a hole in the pool lines on it's way to the pump. There have also been reports of lightning hitting a concrete encased electrode and blowing a hole in the footer where it exits.

If you used a mesh system I would be amazed that the entire section of mesh got separated from the other.

 

[bjfowler]

Yes. I am at a loss of why the mesh is only connected partially around the pool now.

 

[Mystic Pools]

If you cut 3' back from the pool, the remaining concrete will most likely move, settle and crack. Plus the color of the new concrete will not match
I'm not sure how big the pool deck is. Perhaps removing it all and re-pour......?

Instead of steel rebar consider fiberglass rebar. Owens Corning makes it. Plus, no need to bond it. Run a new perimeter bond. I'm not sure in your state if the grid or a single #8 is required.

Lose the water bond at the skimmer. I don't trust them. Not easily accessible if covered with concrete. Eventually the chemicals will destroy that connection rendering it useless.
There is an in-line water bond that connects into the plumbing at the pool equipment. This is what I use. Permacast PB-2008

You did not mention if the pool has a light. What type if so?

I think most importantly, get an electrician that is experienced with swimming pools to check everything out. I would not use the pool either until this is resolved.

 

[ramsy]

get an electrician that is experienced with swimming pools

Our local pool suppliers won't sell to electricians without a pool contractors license.

 

[bjfowler]

If you cut 3' back from the pool, the remaining concrete will most likely move, settle and crack. Plus the color of the new concrete will not match
I'm not sure how big the pool deck is. Perhaps removing it all and re-pour......?

Instead of steel rebar consider fiberglass rebar. Owens Corning makes it. Plus, no need to bond it. Run a new perimeter bond. I'm not sure in your state if the grid or a single #8 is required.

Lose the water bond at the skimmer. I don't trust them. Not easily accessible if covered with concrete. Eventually the chemicals will destroy that connection rendering it useless.
There is an in-line water bond that connects into the plumbing at the pool equipment. This is what I use. Permacast PB-2008

You did not mention if the pool has a light. What type if so?

I think most importantly, get an electrician that is experienced with swimming pools to check everything out. I would not use the pool either until this is resolved.

The pool deck is rather large. I think I would just fill the pool in before removing all the concrete. I have LED lights. Just to clarify, I can trip the Main breaker and still have the 5v neutral to earth which is why the power company is investigating. My Nephew who lives about a half a mile away is experiencing 6v neutral to earth. I believe a perimeter bond is all that is required here, but I will check to see. The coping of my pool is travertine stone that is one foot wide. I may be able to just remove the travertine and mortar, then place a new perimeter bond and then mortar the travertine back. Thank you for the part number of the in-line water bond. I have been looking for a good one. I am trying to find an electrician that is experienced in swimming pool bonding, but most around here are not. The Utility guy told me I was probably 1 of about 10 people in the entire county that actually bonds their pool. Scary.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Our local pool suppliers won't sell to electricians without a pool contractors license.

I don't know where you shop , Leslies , SCP and some others sell to Electrical contractors. I buy from them. Maybe it is because you don't have a C-10 license.

 

[Mystic Pools]

The pool deck is rather large. I think I would just fill the pool in before removing all the concrete. I have LED lights. Just to clarify, I can trip the Main breaker and still have the 5v neutral to earth which is why the power company is investigating. My Nephew who lives about a half a mile away is experiencing 6v neutral to earth. I believe a perimeter bond is all that is required here, but I will check to see. The coping of my pool is travertine stone that is one foot wide. I may be able to just remove the travertine and mortar, then place a new perimeter bond and then mortar the travertine back. Thank you for the part number of the in-line water bond. I have been looking for a good one. I am trying to find an electrician that is experienced in swimming pool bonding, but most around here are not. The Utility guy told me I was probably 1 of about 10 people in the entire county that actually bonds their pool. Scary.

Are the lights a wet niche type? Large round? Or a nicheless type that is 1 1/2" round? Uses a standard wall fitting.
I'm only asking to clarify as a wet niche requires the bonding on the inside of the niche as well as the backside. It's important to be sure it is bonded and part of the perimeter bonding.

I'm surprised with the utility guy's statement. It is scary.

Why not reach out to the original pool contractor for their electrician?

Code requires the bond to be placed 18"-24" from the inside of the pool wall. In your case it'll be less than 12" as the coping probably has an overhang into the pool.
I'm not sure if there is an appreciable difference in placing closer to the pool.

 

[ramsy]

I don't know where you shop , Leslies , SCP and some others sell to Electrical contractors. I buy from them. Maybe it is because you don't have a C-10 license.

Replacing a pool J-Box is legal in our state with no license at all, per CA license law B&P 7048.

The problem is suppliers enabling new construction without permits or inspections, getting named in lawsuits, and throwing out that baby with the bathwater.

Grainger was the more sophisticated solution for minor service work, albeit a constant chore to refuse larger projects.

 

[Fred B]

Our local pool suppliers won't sell to electricians without a pool contractors license.

Around here the Pool contractors don't have a clue for the electrical and even the EP requirements. Seen Many that HJO says to pool company did this or that and said this or that, and even seen and tested, an utter failure on safety. Answer from them is "We've always done it this way."

 

[ramsy]

Seen Many that HJO (finds) utter failure on safety. (using the excuse) "We've always done it this way."

Suppliers can't tell the hacks from the facts.

What does HJO stand for? That's a new term for me.

 

[Fred B]

Suppliers can't tell the hacks from the facts.

What does HJO stand for? That's a new term for me.

typo HO Homeowner

 

[Mystic Pools]

Around here the Pool contractors don't have a clue for the electrical and even the EP requirements. Seen Many that HJO says to pool company did this or that and said this or that, and even seen and tested, an utter failure on safety. Answer from them is "We've always done it this way."

Electrical is one thing. You should see their other work.....

 

[Sierrasparky]

Replacing a pool J-Box is legal in our state with no license at all, per CA license law B&P 7048.

The problem is suppliers enabling new construction without permits or inspections, getting named in lawsuits, and throwing out that baby with the bathwater.

Grainger was the more sophisticated solution for minor service work, albeit a constant chore to refuse larger projects.

You have heard of suppliers getting named in Lawsuits for new construction without permits?

 

[ramsy]

You have heard of suppliers getting named in Lawsuits for new construction without permits?

Joint and several liability collects from the deepest pockets.

Joint and Several Liability: Definition, Example, State Limits

Joint and several liability is legal lingo for a responsibility that is shared by multiple parties. A wronged party may sue any or all of them.

www.investopedia.com

 

[Sierrasparky]

Joint and several liability collects from the deepest pockets.

Joint and Several Liability: Definition, Example, State Limits

Joint and several liability is legal lingo for a responsibility that is shared by multiple parties. A wronged party may sue any or all of them.

www.investopedia.com

I understand the legal theory, However there is no liability on the supply house for providing general commodity materials. If the supplier sold some custom device that was modified by the supplier then I can see. Or if a supplier chose the product acting as expert then there can be liability. If I was the supplier and my unlicensed direct customer involved me in his lawsuit, that guy would need to watch his back as sometime someone else will not take it lightly.

 

[ramsy]

However there is no liability on the supply house

Found Utah lawyer's blog that agrees with you, but not sure about all states.

It isn’t legally necessary that a construction material provider check whether the individual/substance that materials are being sold to is authorized. (No reference provided)

There is a hazard that unlicensed contractor may not get paid....lacking lien rights..

Selling Construction Materials to Unlicensed Contractors - Skoubye, Nielson and Johansen, LLC | SNJ Legal

It is not required by law that a construction material supplier verify whether the individual/entity that materials are being sold to is licensed. However,

snjlegal.com