Failed inspections

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roger

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I'm just waiting for the OP to show me where I can find his special Fire Wall and how it's constructed, there has to be a document/detail showing it and it's particulars and this information should be available to all that might need it.

Roger
 
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ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
I'm just waiting for the OP to show me where I can find his special Fire Wall and how it's constructed, there has to be a document/detail showing it and it's particulars and this information should be available to all that might need it.

Roger

roger, these are engineered walls that have all of the specs and stipulations written right on the drawings. They have been installing them like this with these stipulations for over 20 years. Factory Mutual is one entity that will not provide insurance without following these specs.

If it is on the stamped approved drawings then you follow them. Real simple. If you violate the requirements of the prints and the insurance carrier who also takes part in approving the prints, you are only creating problems.

Can't figure out why you are so stuck on this one.
 

ivsenroute

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Location
Florida
And roger,

I am not talking about fire rated assemblies or fire rated partitions, I am talking about a true, real firewall. It is free standing and separates buildings essentially making them 2 separate entities. This is often used to comply with the height and area limitations of the building code, sprinklered building or not. HVAC ducts will not penetrate these walls. If they do then you are probably thinking about a fire rated assembly or partition, not a true firewall.

The roll down fire doors that are tied into the NFPA 72 system and have a backup fuse-able link are UL rated along with the doors that are spec'd for installation.
 

iwire

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Massachusetts
Factory Mutual is one entity that will not provide insurance without following these specs..

The FM wording we have been shown says 'should' and 'preferred' that does not have the tone of any requirement.

Looks like you are enforcing more than you are entitled to. I have never heard of an electrical inspector enforcing insurance company desires and I do not think they should or can legally.

Why would any of be stuck on this?

Because you came here saying that ECs do not know their job and it appears you may have some short comings in that respect as well. (Just like myself or any other human)
 

roger

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Fl
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Electrician
Can't figure out why you are so stuck on this one.

I guess it's because I am used to seeing what I'm dealing with such as a UL wall type and a through penetration system that has been tested and listed for the wall type.

For example;

UL u498

Unless information like this is made readily available, the person being repeatedly failed for non-compliance is not really at fault IMO.

A written description on a set of plans is fine but can leave pertinent details out that may allow other ways of accomplishing the task at hand.

The UL wall I showed above has a number of through penetrations that will work with it.

If this insurance company is asking for this, where did they come up with design and where was it tested?

As the inspector turning these people down, do you have any details and know how the wall is actually supposed to be constructed?

Those are some of the reasons I'm stuck on this.


Roger
 
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ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
If the stamped, approved prints state this then you as an EC are responsible for following it.

Are any of you really going to completely ignore the stamped, approved prints and penetrate wherever and however you feel then tell the inspectors there is nothing they can do about it? How about a little realism here.
 

infinity

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Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
If the stamped, approved prints state this then you as an EC are responsible for following it.

Are any of you really going to completely ignore the stamped, approved prints and penetrate wherever and however you feel then tell the inspectors there is nothing they can do about it? How about a little realism here.

Changes are made everyday to approved drawings. It's called value engineering. In some places someone will ask for new drawings showing the changes. In some places they will not since they're only inspecting what the code requires. It not likely that there's one rule that will cover all of the work performed in all 50 states.
 

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
If the stamped, approved prints state this then you as an EC are responsible for following it.


Are any of you really going to completely ignore the stamped, approved prints and penetrate wherever and however you feel then tell the inspectors there is nothing they can do about it? How about a little realism here.


I have been working commercial for 25 years and have never seen on a print a FM requirement nor a 36" min height for penetrations. Neither did a long time inspector not far from you.

You have repeatedly mentioned "A true fire wall" what the heck is that? Where can I find the specifications for building a 'true fire wall'?

Is a less substantial wall an 'un-true' fire wall?
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
Changes are made everyday to approved drawings. It's called value engineering. In some places someone will ask for new drawings showing the changes. In some places they will not since they're only inspecting what the code requires.


That has been my experience.

For example I would say 90% of our prints indicate an EMT job but we use MC
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
FIRE WALL. A fire-resistance-rated wall having protected
openings, which restricts the spread of fire and extends continuously
from the foundation to or through the roof, with sufficient
structural stability under fire conditions to allow collapse
of construction on either side without collapse of the wall.

706.5 Horizontal continuity. Fire walls shall be continuous
from exterior wall to exterior wall and shall extend at least 18
inches (457 mm)beyond the exterior surface of exterior walls.
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
FIRE PARTITION. A vertical assembly of materials
designed to restrict the spread of fire in which openings are protected.

FIRE BARRIER. A fire-resistance-rated wall assembly of
materials designed to restrict the spread of fire in which continuity
is maintained
 

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Somewhere they has to be design documents on how to construct those walls you list and in my experience those documents come from UL not an insurance company.
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
That has been my experience.

For example I would say 90% of our prints indicate an EMT job but we use MC

For those under the I-Codes: (this includes all trades)

106.4 Amended construction documents. Work shall be
installed in accordance with the approved construction documents,
and any changes made during construction that are not
in compliance with the approved construction documents shall
be resubmitted for approval as an amended set of construction
documents.


For those in PA: (again, includes all trades)

(l) Work shall be installed in accordance with the approved construction documents. The permit holder shall submit a revised set of construction documents for approval for changes made during construction that are not in accordance with the approved construction documents.

(m) A permit is not valid until the required fees are collected under ?? 401.2 and 401.2a (relating to Department fees; and municipal and third-party agency fees).
 

roger

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Fl
Occupation
Electrician
In addition to the fact that they are engineered.
And all we are asking is where we can find this engineering.

More technical information including the 36" rule can be found in NFPA 221

I don't think that tells where the design and testing criteria can be found.

The I codes, NFPA, and whatever other rules may be applicable have to have something to go by in adopting a rule, this can not just be a few broken masonry units and mortar thrown together and some insurance company saying it is gods gift to fire prevention.

Once again a note on a print is not necessarily the end of the conversation, many times the specs will change a note. All the contract documents must be used to determine compliance or lack of.

Roger
 

ivsenroute

Senior Member
Location
Florida
There are prescriptive designs already approved/tested in chapter 7 of the IBC. Chapter 16 of the IBC provides structural design criteria for engineers. There are a multitude of 3rd party testing agencies such as UL that provide all of the required documents. The ICC utilizes Legacy reports to approve products and design along with the ICC-ES and the IAS. The availability of this information is there for just about anyone to see. Some require membership. I have to request this information during plan review but most of the time it is already provided as standard operating procedure.

If you read the NFPA 221 I am sure you will find some of the appropriate references. But for now since the NFPA 221 prescriptively specifies a requirment that is adopted and utilized on a set of engineered, sealed and approved prints, all you have to do is follow directions.
 

mpd

Senior Member
in response to the OP, that main bond screw not installed or just stuck in the hole drives me insane that is on of my repeat failures, i got to the point i did not care if the contractor was on site and wanted to fix it he failed.
 

mpd

Senior Member
I did not realize inspectors where supposed to dish out punishment.



my theory if you want to waste my time, i can certainly waste yours, and i am talking about repeat offenders for the same corrections over and over and over and over again,
 
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