Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

[tom baker]

One of my students has a house wired in 1984 with a Federal Pacific panel. Refresh my memory,
1. what problems are there with FPE panels and breakers,
2. are there any years that were worse than others
3. Is FPE still in business
PS this will be a great example of the value of the code forum, thanks

 

[southernboys]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

as far as I understand it the breakers will become dangerously hot before they trip if they in fact ever do trip. every elec that I have worked for has told me if I find fpe panels when working to strongly encourage them to change there panel out. I believe they are now out of business

 

[paul]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

They were similar to Zinsco in that they had trouble tripping on overcurrent. Yes, they were still in business a few years ago and used up in Canada.

Edited to add:

Challenger Corporation acquired certain of the assets of the old Federal Pacific Electric Company from Reliance Electric circa 1986.

[ April 15, 2005, 02:17 AM: Message edited by: paul ]

 

[goldstar]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

FPE breakers were commonly referred to as "Federal no-blow" breakers. You'd have to hold a dead short on a pair of wires for about one to two seconds before a breaker would trip.

There is currently a class action lawsuit pending in the Superior Court in New Jersey, Law Division, Middlesex County, Docket # L-2904-97 entitled "Yacout v. Federal Pacific Electric Company". This is a short excerpt from the letter I received :

The Court has determined that defendant Federal Pacific Electric violated the New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act, by reason of cheating during the Underwriter's Laboratory certification process when FPE Stab-Lok circuit breakers were manufactured in the 1965-1980 time period. Defendants FPE and Reliance Electric Company are charged with failing to notify the public of the extent of cheating and the inability of these breakers to meet the applicable UL standards in the years since then. The issue whether the breakers in your customers' homes and businesses can be claimed to be valid and meet UL standards is of vital significance.

There are certain criteria that must be met to qualify. In short they are as follows :

a) The customer owns a home in NJ
b) The customer must have been the owner of the home at the time FPE Stab-Lok breakers were manufactured and installed between June 29, 1971 and July 1, 1980 as original equipment.
c) The breaker panel must contain original FPE breakers and must have the logo "Federal pacific Electric and the words Stab-Lok" on the cover (not Federal Pacific Equipment, Inc.)
d) You are not one of the defendants (FPE or Reliance Electric).

As luck would have it I recently upgraded my electrical service and removed my 35 year old FPE breaker panel but I wasn't the original owner of the house. Nothing like kicking a guy when he's down !!!

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

FPE= fire proof electric,they will still be holding when the roof walls in

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

How do others feel about GE panels and breakers,them wafer in a 20 20 and the 200 main that is really 4 -100 amps with tie handle.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
How do others feel about GE panels and breakers,them wafer in a 20 20 and the 200 main that is really 4 -100 amps with tie handle.

IMO, they are junk.
I especially don't like the ones that have a cluster of a neutral/ground bar in the upper corner next to the main, right where all of the feeds come in. A big bulge of wires that I've never seen installed neatly.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

I was curious if it was just me that thaught they are junk.I needed a panel to re do mine at my own house so i could get on with my back up generator install.Big orange had a package deal only on GE ,while the price was great i just had to pass.Would grab a homeline in a hart beat.Have installed hundred of them and never a problem.I for one only want a full 40 circuit panel.Too much rides on the panel to use cheap wafer stuff like GE sells.

 

[celtic]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

Here's all you need to know about FPE:

http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/FPEnotice12-05.htm

The above is a link to a class action lawsuit filed in federal court against FPE. The terms of the suit include damages to origininal homeowners with FPE equipnet still in use - the damages are calculated from an EC's invoice billed to the HO. The class action is ONLY FOR NJ PROPERTY OWNERS....and the last date to file is 4/20/05.

Need more?
See:

http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm
http://www.codecheck.com/codecheck_resources_electr.html#breakers

The inspect-ny.com site has TONS of information.

Presently, I am in the process of estimating panel replacements for a 30 unit condo property plus the main service equipment. Not all the HO's will be eligible, but all the HO's should replace the equipment.

NJ EC's...this is a HUGE opportunity to drum up some extra business...but please, don't resort to "scare tactics" to get the job.

I got involved with this through 1 customer that needed some unrelated minor repairs performed. HE informed ME that the building owners (HOA) were interested in doing something about the FPEs.

I can only guess that the repair job was an "audition"...he liked the work and the price...and there you go. You can never tell when a $200 job will lead to a $30,000 job.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

"NJ EC's...this is a HUGE opportunity to drum up some extra business...but please, don't resort to "scare tactics" to get the job."

If the have a FPE they need and should be scared

 

[brian john]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

I was involved in the recall FPE did in the early 80's and while I no longer have the documentation regarding the recall; as I remember it, the problem was (AT THAT TIME) with 480/600-volt circuit breakers, The AIC ratings were not up to the task. We replaced the FPE circuit breakers with GE circuit breakers, the GE circuit breakers were furnished by FPE.


We did nothing with residential circuit breakers and as I remember it, no residential snap in circuit breakers was listed as being a recall item. That does not mean there was not a problem with these circuit breakers. But by no means is this an endorsement of their snap in type circuit breaker, the design was lousy from the start the stab lost tension at the bus connection. I have seen this many times with circuit breakers carrying full load capacity.

As far a FPE Canada goes, this was a company that made transformers and ground fault controls, I do no believe they were in the circuit breaker business.

We always said FPE = Fix Prior T0 Energizing

Unfortunately residential market is the low end (Usually) FPE, Zinsco, and some others I will not mention, myself when I wired my house I used Square D QO's.

We have some properties in this area that have a double threat wired in the mid 70's all aluminum wiring and FPE or Zinsco panels.

[ April 15, 2005, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: brian john ]

 

[mc5w]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

I have found that turning off a Federal Pacific stab-lok circuit breaker and then back on would restore normal operation. An instance was replacing a broken outlet quad for diesel engine block heaters in trucks. Then, the customer would find out that they have 30 amps of engine block heaters on a 20 amp circuit. I would then have to run a second 20 amp circuit.

Evidentally, FPE worked right when new but would develop arthritis after a few years. Actually, before silicone lubricants ALL molded case and air circuit breakers had to be exercised at least once per year to prevent arthritis.

Before SquareD came out with their QO technology they had some other breakers that really sicked in this regard. One time when doing about 2/3 of a house reqire including a replacement service panel that was only a few years old from the owner's own house next door, chopping through live cables would not trip the breakers.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

I just relaced my old sub panel. I thought it was FPE, but the breakers all read Federal Electric Products Company, Newark N J USA.

Does anyone know if this is pre FPE? I would guess that it is.

The breakers are stab-lok. Installed 1958.

The breakers are not UL listed, they are UL "inspected", however they do read use only in listed enclosure (imprinted on the side)
EDIT And BTW, as far as getting them out, I craked the plastic prying them out. I could not remove them by hand, had to use a screwdriver. The "stabs" were not welded to the buss. Just tight.
breaker label

[ April 17, 2005, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: sandsnow ]

 

[norcal]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

Sandsnow, was it a Federal "NO ARK" panel.?


BTW, I belive that Federal was a offshoot* of the Colt Firearms Co.

*No pun intended.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

I have seen FPE`S and Zinsco`s ( What I call arch weld breakers Melt down in the past) There was one other threat from FPE`S,around 1979 I did a service main change out for a friend it was a FPE 300 amp bolt 3 phase bolt in type fed from underground P.O.E. box.
I turned off all loads and undid the line leads and on the second hot leg I heard a crack,for some reason I removed the 2 screws that held the breaker to the enclosure prior to this.I R & R`D the breaker and after I held the bolt in breaker up to the light and there was only one bolt in hole that allowed light to go through,the blocked one had internal parts blocking the light.So glad I undid the mounting screws first if not well I think you know the result

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

Originally posted by norcal:
Sandsnow, was it a Federal "NO ARK" panel.?


BTW, I belive that Federal was a offshoot* of the Colt Firearms Co.

*No pun intended.

I don't know. I can post a picture of the panel, but my internet at home is down for a while. EDIT: The labels were worn off.

[ April 18, 2005, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: sandsnow ]

 

[celtic]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

If you check the links I provided, you will see various examples of what a FPE CB looks like.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

Originally posted by celtic:
If you check the links I provided, you will see various examples of what a FPE CB looks like.

Thanks, it appears mine was a first generation. The c/b's did not have the orange handles. I did not see any pictures of the type I have.

Wow, maybe they're collectors items!!

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

Challenger made a FPR replacement stab lock that had a black handle pricey too better to do a panel change out then buy lets say 3 2 pole 40`s

 

[beanland]

Re: Federal Pacific-Problem with breakers?

Older FPE Stablok breakers are suspect. Do not assume that new Canadian FPE are of the same design just because the company name is the same. For the same reason, do not assume that UL listing guarantees perfect performance. Any manufacturer can design a defective part or manufacture a good design improperly. Part of the old FPE problem was dual breakers binding because of the handle link. There are some excellent references on the web. However, there is something to be said for replacing a 50 year old panel just for safety and reliability reasons.