Federal Pacific

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guschash

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Are Federal Pacific Panels a disaster waiting to happen? I have heard there is chance they can over heat. I have a customer who has one and I menton it to him. I told it would be a good idea to change it.
 
I lived in a rental home years ago that had Federal breakers in the panelboard. Direct ground-faults wouldn't even trip them...:mad: I moved. :D

Then one time when I was on the local chapter of IAEI, we had a Doctor of Physics come in and give a presentation to the Executive Board on the dangers associated with the continued use of these inferior products. There was actually a Supreme Court action against this outfit years ago...Jeez!:-? :)
 
guschash said:
Are Federal Pacific Panels a disaster waiting to happen? I have heard there is chance they can over heat. I have a customer who has one and I menton it to him. I told it would be a good idea to change it.
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This is a much discussed issue. My understanding of the issue is that a very small percentage of FPE panels have a known issue that could potentially cause a fire due to overheating.

If an inspection reveals no evidence of overheating, it is likely that there is nothing wrong with it.

Part of the problem is that there are many urban legends surrounding these panels, and it is difficult to sort out fact from rumor and plaintiff's lawyers unfounded assertions.

One problem with changing it to a new panel is that the wire bending space requirements changed in the meantime and the new panel will probably be physically larger. This could be a big issue, or not a big deal at all.

The vintage of these panels also means there is some potential for the use of aluminum wiring for the branch circuits.

Both the FPE panel and the aluminum wiring can be perfectly safe. There is also a very small percentage of these installations that can have a problem.

Personally, I think the aluminum branch circuit wiring has more long term potential for problems than an FPE panel that shows no signs of overheating after all these years. If the FPE panel had a problem, it probably would have exhibited itself by now. Aluminum wiring problems just appear one day.

You will please note the use of vague terms in the above like probably, can, and likely. I do not think there is an answer to this question that does not involve a judgment call on the part of both yourself and your customer.
 
My Experience

My Experience

I have been in this forum for a few years and have read every thread regarding these breakers. My parents have an FPE panel in their home which was built in 1980 so I was curious. I did some tests and found that their breakers were functional. "At least the ones I tested". I respect the information I have read, and have even offered to change the panel but I can honestly say I have seen them work. I am not advocating FPE but I do feel some of the installations may be safe if not disturbed or abused.
 
In the 1980 time frame, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission investigated the performance of FPE Stab-Loc full-width double-pole CB's in ratings from 30 - 80 amps. 122 of these breakers were tested at CPSC Wright-Malta Corp to the UL criteria which included tests at 135% and 200% rated current. The test with 135% showed 51% of the breakers failed with individual poles tested and failure was at 25% with both poles tested simultaneously. The failure rates increased to 65% and 36% respectively after 500 operations of the on/off toggle handle.

FPE and their parent company Reliance Electric tested their own breakers and notified CPSC of problems associated with their two-pole Stab-Locs. Southwest Research Incorporated had consistent findings of FPE and CPSC.

Stab-Loc combination/gfi breakers were prone to jamming due to common tripping mechanism and failed many tests.

Stab-Loc Panels had three different types of bussbar arrangements, 1) cu bus bar with punched openings, 2) "Z" clip clamped to buss bar with 10-32 screw, and 3) Stab socket on a post, attached with an 8-32 steel screw. Of these types, #3 is known to have a high probability of deteriorating and overheating of the stab socket structures when subjected to significant current flow. (All three showed failures)
Reliance Electric, startlingly, brought suit against it's own subsidiary, FPE, in U.S. District Court in Cleveland, Ohio, on June 26, 1980 alleging "materially deceptive and improper manufacturing, testing, and certification practices"....

I would not have an FPE breaker in my house come hell or high water. :)
 
They make fine welders.My opinion is i would not knowingly ever sleep in a house or motel with them.Something about liking to live.Penny behind a fuse never caused a problem either till something went wrong.If it was in my parents (both gone) i would rip it out on my own money.How many cases do you need before you wake up?
 
Thanks guys. I will look over the panel and give homeowner my opinion. I will also tell him of your opinion too.
 
jwelectric said:
You do realize that the link that you posted is owned be a group of home inspectors and the inserts from the CPSC is only partial inserts.

Do a search of the original report from the CPSC.
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My info is from Dr. J. Aronstein who worked for many years for the CPSC and wrote the "Failure Anaylsis of Residential Circuit Breaker Panel" report for the CPSC, Project CPSC-C-81-1455, May 20, 1982; "Final Report: Calibration and Condition Tests of Molded Case Circuit Brakers", CPSC-C-81-1429, December 30, 1982; "Staus Report- Evaluation of Residential Molded Case Circuit Breakers",CPSC-C-81-1455, August 10, 1982; and "Phase Two Report, Evaluation of Residential Molded Case Circuit Breakers", CPSC-C-81-1455, March 10, 1984.
It is these reports that conclusively prove evidence of panel failure due to ignition from failure of buss-bar interconnections in the backside of the panel; Substantial percent failures to trip on overload; Mechanism failures in two-pole Stab-Loc breakers; and substantiation that lack of corrosion resistance of certain internal parts is considered to be a factor in the failure of the circuit breakers.
Nothing about home inspectors in these reports.
Dr. Aronstein made presentations to home inspector groups as well as electrical inspector organizations to get the real truth out after he retired from CPSC. :)
 
jwelectric said:
You do realize that the link that you posted is owned be a group of home inspectors and the inserts from the CPSC is only partial inserts.

Do a search of the original report from the CPSC.
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Care to post links to those original reports, Mike?

I haven't observed FPE failures in greater quantities than any other brand myself, but the stigma is good for business.
 
mdshunk said:
Care to post links to those original reports, Mike?

I haven't observed FPE failures in greater quantities than any other brand myself, but the stigma is good for business.
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Especially if you own a fire truck, ambulance or hearse...:rolleyes: :D
 
wbalsam1 said:
Especially if you own a fire truck, ambulance or hearse...:rolleyes: :D
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I know your just kidding, but has anyone reading this thread seen anything worse in an FPE panel that you havn't also seen in an old XO, old QO, or old Westinghouse panel? Fact is, most FPE's that still exist are just plain at the end of their service life. I try to resist using terms like "burn your house down" when selling a customer, unless I'm staring right at some defect that will indeed... burn the house down.
 
How can you be sure?

How can you be sure?

mdshunk said:
I know your just kidding, but has anyone reading this thread seen anything worse in an FPE panel that you havn't also seen in an old XO, old QO, or old Westinghouse panel? Fact is, most FPE's that still exist are just plain at the end of their service life. I try to resist using terms like "burn your house down" when selling a customer, unless I'm staring right at some defect that will indeed... burn the house down.
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How can you be sure some defect will burn the house down? I have seen a few things that I thought would do just that and 10 or 15 years later have seen the place torn down for other reasons.:D
 
We need to be very careful how we word allegations. It is one thing to say that FPE breakers have a high failure rate, or that many people do not trust FPE Breakers; it is something else to say that having an FPE panel will burn your house down. There is enough legitimate work out there that we shouldn't be using scare tactics to sell our services. I would recomend to anyone that has an FPE panel that they consider changing it to a more reliable product, but to state that it will definitely fail and/or cause a fire is a little harsh.
 
haskindm said:
. . . to state that it will definitely fail and/or cause a fire is a little harsh.
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Just as it would be to state that another brand of equipment will never fail and/or cause a fire.
 
mdshunk said:
Fact is, most FPE's that still exist are just plain at the end of their service life.
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Fact is, there was class action lawsuit in NJ against FPE, that was settled in April '05.

Take it however you want.

"Someone" has done a very through job of making it difficult to find information on the Yacout case (Google the name).

Here is the legal notice that was in the papers here in NJ:
FPE.jpg


Scans of other notices:
scan0001.jpg


scan0002.jpg



While it is TRUE that NOT ALL FPE is prone to failure - I would not have it in my home.
 
What we have here is trust.When your name goes south because of a problem then the game is over.There are always stores and brands that get a bad rep.Some are serious some not.Selling bad meat that gives food poisioning will likely cost you lost customers for life (i will not mention names) but me as well as too many others stoped shoping there and they closed.A bar that has poor music simply never sees me again but no harm to my life.Now we enter the world of electrical fusing,i now am placing my trust in them with my life and family (and my dog).Lets look at some quality name that seldom get bashed ,square d ,cutler hammer.My house has cutler hammer and its because of trust they earned,would been equaliy happy with square d.It replaced a GE.Anyone wants it come pick it up,not saying ge is bad but it does not meet my taste and trust,other might like it.FPE was blamed for many fires all over the country.It matters not if they really were the cause or just the best seller.They simply lost trust.How much is your life worth ? The choice is mine and i want what i trust.Have i tested all my breakers ? No,and its because they have a good past.If a new brand showed up at supply house called xxx it would be price that gets them in the market in low price homes and not known quality.What would i do with a FPE ? hOW ABOUT AS AN ANCHOR
 
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