Feeding a fire pump.....

[Fulthrotl]

got a call from a friend of mine, the fire department has required
he put a fire pump on a wooden dock in salt water.

2 1/2" pump, feeding a couple hydrants.

now, how to feed it... i've not done one, and am
unfamiliar with the particulars.

google was my friend, and remains so. been there.
most fire pumps are for high rise structures, not
no rise structures.

has anyone ever done one on a dock?
i will run over there shortly, and get some photos.

i've seen the electrical on this dock. not inspiring.
a booster pump is a very good idea.

thanks for any experience you may have on this...

 

[gadfly56]

got a call from a friend of mine, the fire department has required
he put a fire pump on a wooden dock in salt water.

2 1/2" pump, feeding a couple hydrants.

now, how to feed it... i've not done one, and am
unfamiliar with the particulars.

google was my friend, and remains so. been there.
most fire pumps are for high rise structures, not
no rise structures.

has anyone ever done one on a dock?
i will run over there shortly, and get some photos.

i've seen the electrical on this dock. not inspiring.
a booster pump is a very good idea.

thanks for any experience you may have on this...

This is a first for me. The closest I can come to it was a fire pump that drafted out of the Hudson for a generating station. I suppose they make weather-proof pumps and controllers, but wow! that's going to cost.

 

[Jraef]

It's not at all uncommon for marinas to need fire pumps, because the Coast Guard will not fight dock / marina fires or fires on boats that are docked, so the local fire depts. have jurisdiction.

But being that you are posting it here, I take it they want an electric fire pump? That part is a bit unusual, because typically on a marina facility you want the fire pump to be mobile and engine powered because if the fire takes place between the shore and the pump (or in this case hydrant), you might get cut off from access to it. Also if the pump is on the dock, there may be a conflict with GFCI issues and you don't want a GFCI tripping a fire pump off line, nor do you want an electrical problem in the water in case people jump in to escape fires. That's why as Electricians, we rarely see calls for them.

Are the hydrants on land then? If so, I take it the pump will be on land then too, so basically it's just like any other Fire Pump controller, only NEMA 4X if exposed outdoors. Might be cheaper (and safer) for them to consider building a little block house for it and the pump and using a standard indoor unit.

In most cases, the Fire Pump supplier will be tasked with supplying the starter for it, because there are a lot of decisions about selecting the pump that also play into selecting the right starter and starting method. Most likely all you need to deal with is the source connections per the NEC requirements in Article 695 / NFPA 20 and any ATS issues, assuming there is a back-up generator.

 

[Fulthrotl]

It's not at all uncommon for marinas to need fire pumps, because the Coast Guard will not fight dock / marina fires or fires on boats that are docked, so the local fire depts. have jurisdiction.

But being that you are posting it here, I take it they want an electric fire pump? That part is a bit unusual, because typically on a marina facility you want the fire pump to be mobile and engine powered because if the fire takes place between the shore and the pump (or in this case hydrant), you might get cut off from access to it. Also if the pump is on the dock, there may be a conflict with GFCI issues and you don't want a GFCI tripping a fire pump off line, nor do you want an electrical problem in the water in case people jump in to escape fires. That's why as Electricians, we rarely see calls for them.

Are the hydrants on land then? If so, I take it the pump will be on land then too, so basically it's just like any other Fire Pump controller, only NEMA 4X if exposed outdoors. Might be cheaper (and safer) for them to consider building a little block house for it and the pump and using a standard indoor unit.

In most cases, the Fire Pump supplier will be tasked with supplying the starter for it, because there are a lot of decisions about selecting the pump that also play into selecting the right starter and starting method. Most likely all you need to deal with is the source connections per the NEC requirements in Article 695 / NFPA 20 and any ATS issues, assuming there is a back-up generator.

thanks for the reply. i went over and looked at it. there's about four colors of fugly
smeared all over it:

there's a stamped set of drawings on it, but no specifications on electrical install of pump.

there are two hose cabinets with a 2 1/2" gal pipe connecting them..... to domestic water.
2 1/2" wasn't specified on drawings. domestic water to the facility is 2" at the property
line. only 1 1/2" out to the dock. doesn't appear to match engineered drawings,
which don't seem to reflect the occupancy, either.

power to the facility is 1950's, 200 amp single phase 240 volts, a gutter fed off a
fused disconnect. no means of tapping ahead of the main except punching into
POCO meter cabinet. pump referenced on drawings is 3 phase.

you could put the fire pump on land instead of the dock, but then you'd have to pipe
the fire line another 300' or so.... which you'd have to do anyway, if you don't want
to feed the fire main off the dock domestic water, which seems to be 1 1/2".

the pump specified, from the mfg. cut sheet shows these following uses.
no specific fire pump controller is mentioned:

Residential, Commercial Cast Iron, Bronze Fitted
Centrifugal Pumps G&L Series 3656/3756 S Group
Applications:
Booster service
Spraying systems
Irrigation
Water circulation
Liquid transfer
General purpose pumping

 

[zbang]

Left hand? I'd like you to meet the Right hand, you have so much in common.

 

[texie]

I think someone may want to check with the AHJ. I've seen many standpipe systems on docks and would normally be supplied by a fully compliant NFPA 20 fire pump. The pump you describe is not listed for fire pump service. Also, AFAIK there are no listed single phase fire pumps available and phase conversion is prohibited. Might need to think about a new 3 phase power source.

 

[Jraef]

I think someone may want to check with the AHJ. I've seen many standpipe systems on docks and would normally be supplied by a fully compliant NFPA 20 fire pump. The pump you describe is not listed for fire pump service. Also, AFAIK there are no listed single phase fire pumps available and phase conversion is prohibited. Might need to think about a new 3 phase power source.

+1
You can get a maximum 15HP single phase powered fire pump where the PUMP is listed, but the single phase motor is not listed for Fire Pump duty, so if the system requires an approved fire pump system meeting NFPA 20, it cannot be done. Single phase motors cannot be "guaranteed" to start in the same way a 3 phase motor can; too many potential reliability issues with the starting capacitor / centrifugal switch circuit.

And long before investing in bringing in a 3 phase power source and a backup generator (both of which would be required on fully compliant NFPA 20 fire pump systems), they might be better off with an engine powered fire pump. Methinks your customer is unaware that the term "fire pump" has a specific meaning and legal requirement. He can start with the local Fire Marshal's office if he is unsure, they will lay it out for him.

Rotsa Ruck...

 

[gadfly56]

thanks for the reply. i went over and looked at it. there's about four colors of fugly
smeared all over it:

there's a stamped set of drawings on it, but no specifications on electrical install of pump.

there are two hose cabinets with a 2 1/2" gal pipe connecting them..... to domestic water.
2 1/2" wasn't specified on drawings. domestic water to the facility is 2" at the property
line. only 1 1/2" out to the dock. doesn't appear to match engineered drawings,
which don't seem to reflect the occupancy, either.

power to the facility is 1950's, 200 amp single phase 240 volts, a gutter fed off a
fused disconnect. no means of tapping ahead of the main except punching into
POCO meter cabinet. pump referenced on drawings is 3 phase.

you could put the fire pump on land instead of the dock, but then you'd have to pipe
the fire line another 300' or so.... which you'd have to do anyway, if you don't want
to feed the fire main off the dock domestic water, which seems to be 1 1/2".

the pump specified, from the mfg. cut sheet shows these following uses.
no specific fire pump controller is mentioned:

Residential, Commercial Cast Iron, Bronze Fitted
Centrifugal Pumps G&L Series 3656/3756 S Group
Applications:
Booster service
Spraying systems
Irrigation
Water circulation
Liquid transfer
General purpose pumping

Do the stamped drawings call out a "fire pump" or just the pump the cut sheet describes? That sure isn't a fire pump, you betcha. That service onto the property would, at a guess, need to be 6" to 10", depending on the property configuration. In fact, depending on the marina layout, he might be better off with a private hydrant system fed from a new main rather than this lash-up. Yeah, let's have a fire, an energized "fire pump" that may cause a fault condition lighting up the water, and as a bonus, won't provide anywhere near the flow needed to fight a fire. What could possibly go wrong? :jawdrop:

 

[gadfly56]

I took your information on the pump and Googled it. This is the pump. It is SO not a fire pump. You need a pump that can deliver at least 500gpm at a head of 125 psig (~270 feet). Let me throw a number at you for a fire pump of minimal capability and see how it flies: $25,000 for pump and controller, less installation.

 

[Fulthrotl]

well, there's a reason this forum is awesome. y'all know that.

i just copied and pasted all the responses into an email to the
customer, suggesting he check out a gas powered pump.

when the big check comes in from this consultation, dinner is
on me.

thanks again....

 

[texie]

well, there's a reason this forum is awesome. y'all know that.

i just copied and pasted all the responses into an email to the
customer, suggesting he check out a gas powered pump.

when the big check comes in from this consultation, dinner is
on me.

thanks again....

As Jraef mentioned, sometimes a diesel fire pump can be a solution. They are available completely prepackaged in a hut/building in electric drive or diesel drive from all the major vendors. There are some pretty big downsides to diesel fire pumps such as cost and maintenance but they have their place. Electric drive even with having to do a new service is usually cheaper to buy and install especially if you consider total cost of ownership.

 

[Cow]

I've never installed electrical for a fire pump so I'm out of the loop on the requirements.

I do know two of our customers have fire pumps, but they are both using engine driven pumps. One warehouse has theirs in a basement, another has theirs outside in a shack near a holding pond if I remember correctly.

 

[Jraef]

As Jraef mentioned, sometimes a diesel fire pump can be a solution. They are available completely prepackaged in a hut/building in electric drive or diesel drive from all the major vendors. There are some pretty big downsides to diesel fire pumps such as cost and maintenance but they have their place. Electric drive even with having to do a new service is usually cheaper to buy and install especially if you consider total cost of ownership.

It's not as though there is no maintenance on an electric driven fire pump though, and usually you will need a backup power source if you don't already have one, i.e. diesel generator anyway, which would have the same maintenance issues as a diesel pump.