Feedthru service

[fisherelectric]

I have a customer who needs a new pool house and a
garage wired on his property. He had a brand new 30/40 circ 200 amp service permanently installed on a pole in his yard for this purpose. The poolhouse is going to have approx. 86 amp load max, with kitchenette, dishwasher, refrig, HVAC,water heater, etc. This pool house is approx. 350 feet from the pole, which I have figured will require 2/0 al to maintain voltage drop within 3% to 5%. I'm going to suggest changing his brand new (unused) 30/40 panel to a Siemans WO816B1200CT. This is a 200amp MB panel with feed thru lugs and 16 spaces. Then feed a 200 amp mainbreaker panel in the poolhouse (as a sub-panel) using 4/0 al off the feedthru lugs. The garage will be fed seperately. This will give him room to expand at the pool house, solve the voltage drop problem, and eliminate dealing with a breaker for the poolhouse. Sound right to you?
Can you run a seperate EGC with URD?
Not sure what that feedthru panel costs yet.

 

[bob]

It seems simpler and a lot cheaper to install a 100 amp breaker in the existing panel and feed a new 100 amp panel in the pool area. If in 5 or 10 years it needs to be replaced, it can be done then. I didn't get the existing load on the 200 amp panel.

 

[fisherelectric]

No load. Brand new panel installed just to feed the poolhouse and garage. It seems 100amps is the bare minimum I need for this pool house, plus with needing 2/0 to maintain proper voltage, I'm not so sure it would fit on a 100 amp breaker. This customer may add a hot tub or who knows what to this pool house.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Can you run a seperate EGC with URD?
Not sure what that feedthru panel costs yet.

As I read article 680.25(A) the feeder to the panel at the pool house must be installed with conduit.

I have used many feed thru panels and they are not expensive. I believe this idea is a very good idea esp. if the load may increase at the pool house. Just remember you must upsize your EGC when you upsize your conductors for voltage drop-- art. 250.122

 

[iwire]

Just remember you must upsize your EGC when you upsize your conductors for voltage drop-- art. 250.122

Thats a good point Dennis.

I just want to add that 250.122(B) applies any time the conductors are increased, not just for voltage drop.

Because of this using up sized cable assemblies are pretty much out of the question as the EGC will not be large enough.

 

[fisherelectric]

I don't think 680.25 applies here as the pool is existing. All the pool equipment has been wired directly from the house service. This poolhouse is basically a cabana with a kitchen and bar, showers, dressing room..no pool equipment. If that's the case I think I can direct bury my feeders. Can I use 4/0 URD and add a #2 USE or RHW EGD if that's true?
Also, when I figured the VD, I used VD= 2kID/cm. Does this give me line-line VD or line-neutral VD, or both? Of course, using 4/0 makes this a moot point.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Can I use 4/0 URD and add a #2 USE or RHW EGD if that's true?

What is your concern here? If the URD is 3 wire then I don't see any reason why you couldn't add a 4th wire EGC in the trench along with the other conductors as long as they are all suitable for UG use.

I'm sorry I understood the original question to mean the pool was going to be fed from the new panel. In this case you are correct that 680 does not apply.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

What is your concern here? If the URD is 3 wire then I don't see any reason why you couldn't add a 4th wire EGC in the trench along with the other conductors as long as they are all suitable for UG use.

I'm sorry I understood the original question to mean the pool was going to be fed from the new panel. In this case you are correct that 680 does not apply.

680.25 Feeders. These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of panelboards...

(A)Wiring Methods.
Exception: An existing feeder...

This section does not apply to the panelboards, it applies to the feeders. If he is installing a new feeder, he will need to comply with this section.

As far as the EGC being installed outside of the URD cable, you should read 250.134(B), including exception No.1:.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

680.25 Feeders. These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of panelboards...

(A)Wiring Methods.
Exception: An existing feeder...

This section does not apply to the panelboards, it applies to the feeders. If he is installing a new feeder, he will need to comply with this section.

As far as the EGC being installed outside of the URD cable, you should read 250.134(B), including exception No.1:.

Pierre the pool equipment is not being fed from this panel so why should the feeders fall under 680?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would like to add that article 250.134 (B) states or otherwise run with the circuit conductors. If the urd is in the trench and the egc laid on top it appears that this installation satisfies this article.

 

[fisherelectric]

250.134(B): By an equipment grounding conductor contained within same raceway, cable, or otherwise run with the circuit conductors.

I think "otherwise run" allows 3 wire URD with separate EGC direct buried.

Sorry about cross post

 

[kbsparky]

IF you are installing a 200 Amp service, and 200 Amp feeder, then a 4-wire URD cable assembly with 4/0-4/0-2/0-4 would be compliant. Just ask for "mobile home feeder" when ordering your URD cable.

 

[electricmanscott]

Why bother changing the panel? Install a 200 amp breaker in the existng panel to feed out to the new one? Or am I missing something?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Why bother changing the panel? Install a 200 amp breaker in the existng panel to feed out to the new one? Or am I missing something?

I believe that not all 200 amp panels will allow another 200 amp breaker to be installed. Some panels limit the breaker sizes to 125 or 150 amp or less.

 

[electricmanscott]

I believe that not all 200 amp panels will allow another 200 amp breaker to be installed. Some panels limit the breaker sizes to 125 or 150 amp or less.

Can't recall seeing much of this in new panels but I'll take your word for it.


So how about just adding feed thru lugs to the existing panel?

 

[fisherelectric]

Electricmanscott: Thanks for posting. I did think of that, but the panel won't accept another 200 amp breaker or feedthru lugs. Plus it's brand new and easy to change out. I can also reuse it at the other end in the pool house. A 150amp breaker is almost as much as the feedthru service panel. All-all, after all the input from here, it seems to me to be the most parsimonious (look that up in your Funk and Wagnels) way to do this job.