field engineering

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hurricaneflyer

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I suspect not but...Can an Electrical Engineer design a modification to an existing panel in the feild and it be compliant with the NEC and or other Codes?

What happened in particular is this:

We responded to a service call and discovered the 200 amp main breaker in the branch circuit panel that is in the home had gone out.
This was in a mobile home that had been pulled in and hooked up to an existing meter/200 amp main combo that is out in the yard.
Boss man called his buddy who is an engineer and had him stop by (no fee- hunting buddies and all that)
The engineer told us how we could make connections directly to the buss to bypass the main breaker that had gone out in the inside panel and that it would be safe because of the main breaker out at the meter combo. I did not hear him say it would be compliant, only safe.

On a side note, not that it makes any difference, this was in a poor part of town. The closest thing we have to gettos around here. We almost never get service calls to these areas because whenever there is a problem to be solved someone in the nieghborhood jacklegs thier way around it for a bottle of thunderbird or a six pack or out of a sense of community. Thats all fine and good but I wish they would come closer to meeting code for safetys sake.
This is only the third time I have seen my boss go out of his way to try to help a costumer because of the customer being poor. I see a pattern now. Each time he has done this it has been around the holiday seasons. I guess these people were new to the area and didn't know anyone yet must be why they called us.
 
My guess is that since the service is within sight and has MBR it is code compliant as long as the panel is UL listed without an MBR installed (many are) The question is where does grounding and bonding occur? (It probably wasn't code compliant before) ;)
 
hurricaneflyer, If you are working for an electrician that needs to consult with an engineer when a 200 Amp. main breaker goes out then you need to find another job. Don't waste your time working for someone that doesn't know what he's doing.

It's better to work a few years with someone that's good than a long time with someone that isn't.
 
growler said:
hurricaneflyer, If you are working for an electrician that needs to consult with an engineer when a 200 Amp. main breaker goes out then you need to find another job. Don't waste your time working for someone that doesn't know what he's doing.

It's better to work a few years with someone that's good than a long time with someone that isn't.
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If he's modifying a panel outside its normal UL listing he'd have to consult an electrical engineer... which could very well be the case here if the panel isn't UL approved without the MBR installed. In this case it sounds like it was very cost effective :D
 
As a seperate structure this trailer is required to have a main breaker in it.Your boss had you violate nec.I dont see a need for an engineer on this.Is it safe ? Probably since the main outside is within site and 30 feet.If i was him i would send you back with a breaker and fix it right.Doing something like this in emergency till new breaker can be had is one thing but leaving it this way is wrong.
 
DaveTap said:
If he's modifying a panel outside its normal UL listing he'd have to consult an electrical engineer... which could very well be the case here if the panel isn't UL approved without the MBR installed. In this case it sounds like it was very cost effective :D
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110.3 (B) Installation and Use. Listed and labeled equipment SHALL be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

What is an Electrical Engineer? A person with an engineering degree.
What is an Electrical Engineer allowed to do? Get a job.

What is a PE? A person with a license to practice engineering.

If a job is under the supervision of a PE then a certain flexibity may be allowed.

You are not going to find any PE's that are willing to sign off on any rigging. They want to keep their license.

If anyone thinks that calling in a EE gives them the right to do non code compliant work then they are in for a rude awakening.

If you need an engineer to show you how to convert a main breaker to a main lug panel. You are not qualified to be an electrician. If you are not sure if this conversion is Code Compliant and do it anyway , same thing.

I smell a handyman.
 
Hurricaneflyer

Hurricaneflyer

Quick two cents.. I am an electrical engineer and I can tell you this: Even if you disregared 110.3 (B) and main breaker needed in seperated structure, I would never, never tell any of my crew to alter a MBP. As for redesigning one, in the field, under the authority of an EE degree, I have never herd of such a thing, ever..

ed
 
hurricaneflyer said:
I suspect not but...Can an Electrical Engineer design a modification to an existing panel in the feild and it be compliant with the NEC and or other Codes?

What happened in particular is this:

We responded to a service call and discovered the 200 amp main breaker in the branch circuit panel that is in the home had gone out.
This was in a mobile home that had been pulled in and hooked up to an existing meter/200 amp main combo that is out in the yard.
Boss man called his buddy who is an engineer and had him stop by (no fee- hunting buddies and all that)
The engineer told us how we could make connections directly to the buss to bypass the main breaker that had gone out in the inside panel and that it would be safe because of the main breaker out at the meter combo. I did not hear him say it would be compliant, only safe.

On a side note, not that it makes any difference, this was in a poor part of town. The closest thing we have to gettos around here. We almost never get service calls to these areas because whenever there is a problem to be solved someone in the nieghborhood jacklegs thier way around it for a bottle of thunderbird or a six pack or out of a sense of community. Thats all fine and good but I wish they would come closer to meeting code for safetys sake.
This is only the third time I have seen my boss go out of his way to try to help a costumer because of the customer being poor. I see a pattern now. Each time he has done this it has been around the holiday seasons. I guess these people were new to the area and didn't know anyone yet must be why they called us.
Click to expand...

What a christmas gift an unprotected service !!!!!Sounds like your boss needs to be brought before the board and have his license revoked.Might as well put a penny behind that old glass plug fuse so the lights wont go out either.
 
hurricaneflyer said:
Can an Electrical Engineer design a modification to an existing panel in the field and it be compliant with the NEC and or other Codes?
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No. The UL sticker would have been attached by the manufacturer (or by a designated field representative). It would take an authorized manufacturer?s representative to alter the internals of a panel, without invalidating the UL listing. One does not become an authorized representative simply by being an engineer, nor even by being a PE.
 
growler said:
If a job is under the supervision of a PE then a certain flexibity may be allowed.
Click to expand...

Where does it say in the code that this is one of those very few cases where engineering supervision makes any difference?
 
"It would take an authorized manufacturer?s representative to alter the internals of a panel, without invalidating the UL listing."

Charlie,

I disagree with your statement. If the modification being done is not part of how the panel was appproved for listing, the UL listing is void regardless of who does the work. UL approves that design only, or specific field modifications to that design.

Tony
 
From the UL White book:

What happens to the Listing if a UL-Listed product is modified in the field?
​
An authorized use of the UL Mark is the manufacturer?s declaration that the product was originally manufactured in accordance with the applicable requirements when it was shipped from the factory.

When a UL-Listed product is modified after it leaves the factory, UL has no way to determine if the product continues to comply with the safety requirements used to certify the product without investigating the modified product. UL can neither indicate that such modifications ??void?? the UL Mark, nor that the product continues to meet UL?s safety requirements, unless the field modifications have been specifically investigated by UL.

It is the responsibility of the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) to determine the acceptability of the modification or if the modifications are significant enough to require one of UL?s Field Engineering Services staff members to evaluate the modified product. UL can assist the AHJ in making this determination.

An exception for a field modification authorized by UL is when the product has specific replacement markings...​
 
allenwayne said:
What a christmas gift an unprotected service !!!!!Sounds like your boss needs to be brought before the board and have his license revoked.Might as well put a penny behind that old glass plug fuse so the lights wont go out either.
Click to expand...

Its still protected by the 200 outside but it still requires a main in trailer.
 
My two cents would include the thought of how is the hole in the interior going to be closed up where the mb was.
Rick
 
RUWired said:
My two cents would include the thought of how is the hole in the interior going to be closed up where the mb was.
Rick
Click to expand...

Duct tape. The good kind, not the cheap stuff. Haven't you ever seen the Red Green Show?
 
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tony_psuee said:
If the modification being done is not part of how the panel was approved for listing, the UL listing is void regardless of who does the work. UL approves that design only, or specific field modifications to that design.
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I was referring to the possibility that the manufacturer had already obtained a UL listing for several different configurations of the same panel. My point was that an authorized representative would be able to convert the panel from one listed configuration to a different (but still approved) configuration, without that act voiding the listing.

No, actually my point was that having an engineering degree and a PE license does not, by itself, convey the authority either to approve or to install this kind of field modification, even if you are changing the panel to a different (but still approved) configuration. A person needs to get that authority form the manufacturer.
 
Agree with 100%

Agree with 100%

"No, actually my point was that having an engineering degree and a PE license does not, by itself, convey the authority either to approve or to install this kind of field modification, even if you are changing the panel to a different (but still approved) configuration."

Charlie,

That I agree with 100%. What is interesting after reading Jim's post from the UL Whitebook is that I have been told for years by UL Engineers and panel builders, and repeated it myself to others, that if you make a change that is not part of the listing for that panel, it voids the listing.

Tony
 
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