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mikekelly

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I performed a residential electrical sub-panel addition in a garage. The h/o did the work and wired the sub-panel with the white conductor(s) and the bare ground conductor(s) together on the isolated neutral bar. I tested the outlets for GFCI and it proved to work well.

What would happen if there was a ground fault?

What would happen if there was an open neutral?

Does the GFCI need a equipment ground to properly function?
 
How did he feed the sub-panel (3 wire vs 4 wire)?
Was the garage detached ?
What Code cycle is enforced ?

I believe those questions will have a major bearing on the answers.

With a detached garage, under anything up to the 2008 Code, the problem may be less serious than suspected.
 
A gfci does not need the EGC to function. Basically there is increased potential for potential:roll: on the non-current carrying metallic parts of the system. Weird things happen when the EGc and grounded conductor are tied or when you lose the grounded conductor.
 
mikekelly said:
I performed a residential electrical sub-panel addition in a garage. The h/o did the work and wired the sub-panel with the white conductor(s) and the bare ground conductor(s) together on the isolated neutral bar. I tested the outlets for GFCI and it proved to work well.

What would happen if there was a ground fault?

What would happen if there was an open neutral?

Does the GFCI need a equipment ground to properly function?

The neutral bar is only called isolated when their are no grounding wires on it. Their should be a grounding bar that is attached to the back of the panel. Or attached via a bonding jumper. See NEC 2008 408.40 . If your area is useing the 08 code a four wire system is required. Even if this is a detached garage. The neutral should be isolated from the grounding conductors. See NEC 2008 250.32 (A,B,C,).
Answers to your question #1 , one it could become a shock hazzard.
#2 It could also become a shock hazzard and make eqiument not function propperly. It also could heat at the loose connection causeing the terminals to melt or burn.
#3 The gfci does not use a ground wire to function properly. Although some testers use the grounding conductor for testing the gfci.

It's good your asking questions. Some of these combo inspectors have a bad reputation for not knowing enough about the codes.
If you have not already you should purchase the 08 NEC Handbook.
Good Luck and welcome to the forum.
In 05 for an attached garage the code is the same as 08 to correct the problem. You still need the 4 wire system panel. The ground and neutral must be isolated. That is very basic electricity.
 
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Mike a Gfci does not need a ground to function but it will not trip with a tester.

I am asuming you know this install is not legal. The neutrals and grounds must be separated or you have paralleled neutrals-- this is a no-no.

Also, here is something written by our Moderator Charlie Beck. It may help

Charlie B said:
Why grounds and neutrals are tied only at the main service, and not at a subpanel.

Reference: NEC article 250.42.

We need to start by noting two things: (1) Current is always seeking a path back to its source, and (2) Current will take every available path it can find.

The function of the equipment grounding conductors (EGC), that ones that connect to the ground bar in the panel, is to carry fault current. If a fault occurs with a piece of equipment, such that a hot conductor comes into contact with the case or other external metal part, any person who touches that equipment is going to get a shock. The shock can be enough to kill, but the current will not be high enough to cause the breaker to trip.

However, with the EGC creating a path from the case back to the ground bar, then via the ground screw or bonding jumper to the neutral bar, the current in this path will be high enough to trip the breaker. This will terminate the event before the person can receive a fatal shock. That is why the ground and neutral buses are connected at the main service disconnecting means ? to complete the current path from the fault point back to the source. In this context, I am treating the main panel as the "source." Once the current gets to that point, it has nowhere else go.

If you also connect the ground and neutral at a subpanel, then there will be two paths for current to flow back to the source during normal operation. Current will be flowing in the neutral most of the time (unless the loads running at the moment are perfectly balanced among the phases). But with the ground and neutral tied together both at the main panel and at the subpanel, the EGC will be in parallel with the neutral wire. Therefore, the EGC will carry current. This will cause the external metal parts of each and every component that has an EGC its to become energized. You could not safely touch anything in the facility.
__________________
Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle
 
mikekelly said:
The feeder is four wire, the garage is attached, the code is NEC 2005, I inspected the new sub-panel work.
You dont seem to have the skill level to be inspecting electrical.This install needs a BIG RED TAG.The neutral and ground must be seperated and panel needs bonded to ground.Your permitting a parallel neutral.
 
The h/o did the work and wired the sub-panel with the white conductor(s) and the bare ground conductor(s) together on the isolated neutral bar.

This is a violation of 250.24(A)(5).

What would happen if there was a ground fault?

What would happen if there was an open neutral?

What you have now is a parallel path for neutral current to follow.

As pointed out before a GFCI does not require an equipment ground to funtion.

Chris
 
Dennis Alwon said:
The OP never said he passed the job. So far he just seems curious...

Here when the inspector leaves i either passed or got a tag.I never had one say i will let you know later after i read up on it.Also here it is required to pass a masters test at a min. Como inspectors are very unlikely to know everything needed to do all trades.Not picking on him but do see a serious problem in what he might be missing.If this job was passed we have a serious problem.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Here when the inspector leaves i either passed or got a tag.I never had one say i will let you know later after i read up on it.Also here it is required to pass a masters test at a min. Como inspectors are very unlikely to know everything needed to do all trades.Not picking on him but do see a serious problem in what he might be missing.If this job was passed we have a serious problem.

He may have failed the job-- we don't know. I also have had some inspector tell me they will get back to me. I don't discourage them learning. I got turned down years ago for pulling a 4 wire to a pump house/shed building and separating the neutrals from the grounds. Inspector thought they needed to be bonded together. I asked him to call the state and confirm that my install was correct. He did.
 
mikekelly said:
I performed a residential electrical sub-panel addition in a garage. The h/o did the work and wired the sub-panel with the white conductor(s) and the bare ground conductor(s) together on the isolated neutral bar. I tested the outlets for GFCI and it proved to work well.

What would happen if there was a ground fault?
The fault would probably operate the GFCI just as though it were in a properly wired main panel. Why would anyone bring 4 conductors to a remote panelboard and then connect two of them to the same bus? How could they not realize the isolation required of the neutral conductor so as to minimize the likelihood of neutral return current (objectionable) getting on the equipment ground?

mikekelly said:
What would happen if there was an open neutral?
what neutral are you referring to? A neutral opening on a 120 volt BC would open the circuit; while a neutral opening on a 120/240 volt BC would create a series-parallel circuit which would potentially damage energized equipment while the voltage tried to stabilize.

mikekelly said:
Does the GFCI need a equipment ground to properly function?
refer to other poster's remarks. :smile:
 
"How could they not realize the isolation required of the neutral conductor so as to minimize the likelihood of neutral return current (objectionable) getting on the equipment ground?"
Easy it was a home owner.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
"How could they not realize the isolation required of the neutral conductor so as to minimize the likelihood of neutral return current (objectionable) getting on the equipment ground?"
Easy it was a home owner.

Yes, I know, Jim. I'm being facetious. But what must they be thinking when the conductors they're running originate in the main panel with a grounded conductor and an equipment grounding conductor and then terminate in the remote panel at the same location with two completely different conductors on the same strip/bus/lug? I mean, not a clue?
and then what makes it even worse is when an inspector comes along and doesn't notice. I've been to plently of jobs where a previous inspector totally missed this. And, you're right, this is basic.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Mike a Gfci does not need a ground to function but it will not trip with a tester.

I am asuming you know this install is not legal. The neutrals and grounds must be separated or you have paralleled neutrals-- this is a no-no.

Also, here is something written by our Moderator Charlie Beck. It may help

Thanks for posting that explanation. I have a 20 year plus electrician who insists that the current doesn't have to go back through the source. it might help in educating him.

After trying to explain the path of fault current to him, he then proceeded to tell me how it really works.

I wanted to track down every instructor he ever had in his apprenticeship and punch them in the nose.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Here when the inspector leaves i either passed or got a tag.I never had one say i will let you know later after i read up on it.Also here it is required to pass a masters test at a min. Como inspectors are very unlikely to know everything needed to do all trades.Not picking on him but do see a serious problem in what he might be missing.If this job was passed we have a serious problem.

Welcome to the future.
 
wbalsam1 said:
Yes, I know, Jim. I'm being facetious. But what must they be thinking when the conductors they're running originate in the main panel with a grounded conductor and an equipment grounding conductor and then terminate in the remote panel at the same location with two completely different conductors on the same strip/bus/lug? I mean, not a clue?
and then what makes it even worse is when an inspector comes along and doesn't notice. I've been to plently of jobs where a previous inspector totally missed this. And, you're right, this is basic.
An inspector missing this or not know what he is looking at is scary.People are paying for inspections and think when they pass that the job is safe.When they dont get this we have a major problem.
 
Whoops there goes another would be contributing member.

ease up a little guys Mike is here to learn
 
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