Filing bussing

[beachbumjeremy]

In my home, my breakers had corroded onto the bussing. I was trying to have my insurance pay for a new panel and hopefully relocation of panel out of bathroom, but they have to get an estimate first from one of their contractors. Without too many details, the man filed off all the corrosion, and then filed it even more to make it look clean. In my opinion, this voids any UL listing. Am I correct? I was told by my insurance this is common practice, but the people I know and work with say otherwise. I am still an apprentice and don't yet know everything. PLease tell me what you think, an if you do the same thing this guy did in my home.

 

[dennis schaffert]

corrosion

corrosion

This same issue has caused a lot of excitement in New Orleans , regardless of the fact that he filed or cleaned up the the bus witch would void the manufactures warranty the presence of corrosion would indicate that the breakers or whole assembly is in question to a much greater degree this type of practice was occurring in New Orleans where hole systems were actually under water.
The old adage that Look!!! it works is a bad one. I suggest that you relocate or reverse the panel to the opposite side of the wall if possible in the process of replacing it.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Filing of buss bars is not the solution. There is no way a person who is filing the bus can control how much of the material of the bus is taken when filing. The manufacturers have designed the bus with tigth tolerances for the circuit breaker connections. I would not be happy with the solution taken.

In my home, my breakers had corroded onto the bussing. I was trying to have my insurance pay for a new panel and hopefully relocation of panel out of bathroom, but they have to get an estimate first from one of their contractors. Without too many details, the man filed off all the corrosion, and then filed it even more to make it look clean. In my opinion, this voids any UL listing. Am I correct? I was told by my insurance this is common practice, but the people I know and work with say otherwise. I am still an apprentice and don't yet know everything. PLease tell me what you think, an if you do the same thing this guy did in my home.

 

[beachbumjeremy]

???

???

Do you know of any direct resources I could find to have material in hand for my home owners insurance. I have to have another electrician come out to verify that the things the last guy did was wrong before I can have it fixed correctly, and I'd like to be prepared. I'm also going to navigate the site to find information stating that it's illegal to do live work ( in california only?) on electrical work over 50 volts(I think 50) unless wearing proper protective gear. I want to get them for everything I can after everything this clown did wrong in my panel.

 

[LJSMITH1]

It's not even the amount of 'filing' that concerns me, it's the fact that protective plating has been removed from the bus, and could cause oxidation issues down the road. The oxidation would definitely create higher contact resistance, which will derate the amount of current that can flow through the connection without excess heat building up.

-Larry

 

[infinity]

I would try to get some documentation from the panel manufacturer. I'm sure that they would have something to say about this so called "solution" provided by your far too cheap insurance company.

 

[jim dungar]

Doesn't the CSPC have a brochure about water damaged electrical equipment? I am sure NEMA has one.

In this one http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/fema/flood.html they say:
ELECTRIC CIRCUIT BREAKERS AND FUSES can malfunction when water and silt get inside. Discard ALL circuit breakers and fuses that have been submerged.

 

[RayS]

Well, you could have the insurance adjuster talk to an insurance UNDERWRITER. Have him ask if they would extend coverage knowing that the panelboard has been water damaged, and then field altered without any reference to mfgrs data....

They can't have it both ways, requiring "perfection" in order to issue a policy, and then only paying for crap on the claim end.

This "repair" may actually void your coverage.

 

[rbalex]

NEMA AB4, Section 3.6. Available as a free download here. Type in AB4 in the "Search by Document Number or Title:" box.

 

[rbalex]

In fact there is an entire NEMA document, also free at the site. It is titled EVALUATING WATER-DAMAGED ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT. I haven't absorbed it yet so I can't comment beyond it's existence.

Edit add: Type in "water damage" in the "Search by Keyword: box.

 

[brian john]

WE NEVER use a file on any electrical distribution equipment, at times we utilize a burnishing tool. After utilizing a burnishing tool, we micro-ohm (DLRO*) the connection 99.9% of the time the readings are lower.


*Digital Low Resistance Ohm Meter

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

What does the burnishing tool actually consist of? How is it applied to the bus?

Would the manufacturer approve of such a procedure, especially after such an event as has been posted?

 

[BnE]

can't be the right way, try contacting mfr for oem spec on busbar to cbkr measurements, measure and compare, if filed out of spec take your case back to the insurance they just created a very serious fire hazard in order. I would also think that just filing the busbar itself would reduce the safe amp capacity.

 

[BnE]

also as a side note deenergize panel before doing anything, but im assuming you knew that.

 

[brian john]

If you use a burnishing tool the amount of material removed is MINIMAL if measurable at all by tools an electrician would carry, if you measure contact resistance with a micro-ohm meter the reading is IMPROVED/LOWER/BETTER.

I could not locate a link for the Ideal burnishing tool we utilize, the one we purchase is 4"x3/4"x1/2" flexible the grit is (I think) between 1500-2000.

http://omnicontrols.com/detail.aspx?ID=7056

NOt slamming the manufactures BUT it is in their best interest for you to buy new.

 

[ptonsparky]

In my home, my breakers had corroded onto the bussing. I was trying to have my insurance pay for a new panel and hopefully relocation of panel out of bathroom, but they have to get an estimate first from one of their contractors. Without too many details, the man filed off all the corrosion, and then filed it even more to make it look clean. In my opinion, this voids any UL listing. Am I correct? I was told by my insurance this is common practice, but the people I know and work with say otherwise. I am still an apprentice and don't yet know everything. PLease tell me what you think, an if you do the same thing this guy did in my home.

I am just dumfounded. I can't even imagine this being accepted by any insurance carrier.

 

[cschmid]

I believe you are going about this all wrong. The insurance company has deep pockets and good lawyers so going after the guys attempt at income is wrong. You should be pointing out that they are responsible to replace your house after a fire. That by filling of the buss bar has in essence reduced the amount of amperage that the bus can carry. That since the buss has been reduced and the connections are now looser that they will start to carry a higher level of heat due to the loose connections; which in return increases the chance your house has of burning down. Now the costs associate with a house fire are astronomical, so would it not be cheaper to put in a new panel...

In my home, my breakers had corroded onto the bussing. I was trying to have my insurance pay for a new panel and hopefully relocation of panel out of bathroom, but they have to get an estimate first from one of their contractors. Without too many details, the man filed off all the corrosion, and then filed it even more to make it look clean. In my opinion, this voids any UL listing. Am I correct? I was told by my insurance this is common practice, but the people I know and work with say otherwise. I am still an apprentice and don't yet know everything. PLease tell me what you think, an if you do the same thing this guy did in my home.

 

[LJSMITH1]

Again, as an engineer, I would not condone any field removal of established corrosion from circuit breaker bussbars. Most manufacturers either tin or zinc plate the metal parts to improve conductivity (i.e. lower contact resistance) and or maintain a relatively oxidation free surface. When you use any abrasive means to remove corrosion, it will most certainly remove the protective plating.

Then you have the dimensional issue brought up by other posters. Having a thinner lug for the circuit breaker to mate to, will certainly reduce the contact pressure, and possibly cause overheating under load. I agree with them as well.

Bottom line...corrosion is bad...replace the corroded, current-carrying parts/assemblies for a trouble-free resolution. You might even find a source that can provide replacement parts for your particular panel (if it's not too old).

 

[brian john]

LJS:

As a contractor that specializes in IR and repairing IR discrepancies we would spend $100.00.00 of dollars a year in replacing panels, were the only repair need was some burnishing and testing. Often when burnishing the plating is not disturbed additionally some bus is copper. THE CONNECTION IS AS NOTED IMPROVED. This is verified by calibrated test equipment and IR, many of the repairs have been IR'd year after year with not further issues noted.

Think about it this way, one 20 amp CB bus has corrsion and or pitting. You can not buy an individual bus finger. Cost to repair on overtime $345.00 cost to replace panel $4,500.00. typical 12 story office building may have 3-10 issues like this noted during an IR scan.

 

[LJSMITH1]

Brian,

I understand what you are saying. However, if the corrosion was caused from water damage (as in this example), I am willing to bet that there will be isses down the road.

As you know, burnishing is essentially a polishing process which typically will not remove metal - even plating. If minor surface oxidation/corrosion can be cleaned using this method, then in all likelyhood, everything will be fine.

However, in this case, the buss bars were filed - which indicates much more metal was removed (including the plating). The fact that the breakers were corroded onto the buss bars enough to have to file or sand the bars, would not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

-Larry