Fill violation proof - Who's responsible?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I just did a job where box fill and conduit fill were issues I needed to be concerned about. It got me wondering. If the inspector calls a violation, is s/he responsible for proving the box/conduit is overfilled? Or am I responsible for proving it isn't?

BTW: We are talking about a panel sized box with a 2.5" conduit nipple so there are a lot of conductors.
 

luckylerado

Senior Member
I just did a job where box fill and conduit fill were issues I needed to be concerned about. It got me wondering. If the inspector calls a violation, is s/he responsible for proving the box/conduit is overfilled? Or am I responsible for proving it isn't?

BTW: We are talking about a panel sized box with a 2.5" conduit nipple so there are a lot of conductors.

You can't argue the violation unless you have the proof to back it up.

Inspector::happyyes:
You::happyno:
Inspector::happyyes:
You::happysad:
Inspector::happyyes:
You::jawdrop:
Inspector::lol:
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Path of least resistance sometimes. If you are sure the box isn't overfilled, just make a statement that the box has less than xx #12 conductors after figuring out how many are allowed. Let him come back and count them if he is so inclined.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I just did a job where box fill and conduit fill were issues I needed to be concerned about. It got me wondering. If the inspector calls a violation, is s/he responsible for proving the box/conduit is overfilled? Or am I responsible for proving it isn't?

BTW: We are talking about a panel sized box with a 2.5" conduit nipple so there are a lot of conductors.
Well one of you has to be wrong otherwise you get an endless cycle of:

You can't argue the violation unless you have the proof to back it up.

Inspector::happyyes:
You::happyno:
Inspector::happyyes:
You::happysad:
Inspector::happyyes:
You::jawdrop:
Inspector::lol:
since inspector cited it, I would think your choices are either comply with what they said or prove them wrong, they can make mistakes.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Well one of you has to be wrong otherwise you get an endless cycle of:

since inspector cited it, I would think your choices are either comply with what they said or prove them wrong, they can make mistakes.

H x W x D, and either you have enough cubic inches or you don't. It's even easier if the manufacturer marks the box.
 

jcassity

Senior Member
Location
24941
to me , the answer is plain and simple,
since someone in the past made a personal choice to utilize what i assume is a gutter downstream of the panel you spoke of, IIRC, that limits you to 30 un-udjusted current carrying conductors and combined cmil not to exceed 20% cubic area of copper occupation

once upon a time i went down this rabbit hole to try and learn something because i purchased dividers that installed in my 8''x8'' trough, wireway, gutter or whatever you want to call it,, .

I asked many inspectors along the east coast the questions to prevent rework.
I asked, "if i have a full metal divider inside my 8''x8'' gutter, is is "permissable" treat that as two separate paths,,, never got an answer.
my application was 8''x8'' with full metal dividers with removable single cover on the horizontal plane wall mounted up high. you remove the side cover and your looking at two "shelves" so to speak all the way around the room in a "U" Shape.

my objective was to electrically separate my larger conductors from my smaller conductors within this room perimeter "U" shaped gutter.

I just felt like it was the right thing to do , the lower section was the smaller #6 and smaller wires while the top was for higher draw wiring upstream closer to the UT source. I felt like since heat rises, most heat would be on the larger wires and wanted that heat to get out quick, allowing the smaller wires to not be affected because they are in the lower tier of my wire gutter.
Every so often every 8', the electrician cut in K/0's with plugs of 2'' in size for use to "pass through" , up, along the cieling and out to far end loads.

terminology was my biggest learning hurdle, because you need to use the correct term when speaking the words to support your case on thsi box or gutter or trough or wire way or whatever it needs to be called.
 
Last edited:

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
H x W x D, and either you have enough cubic inches or you don't. It's even easier if the manufacturer marks the box.
Seems it should be that simple, but then you get into situations of what conductors can be omitted from the count, which ones may be required to count twice, does a box already marked with cubic inches include any deductions for clamps...
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
mot times i have found it is actually pretty hard to overfill a box or a conduit. you have to really try.

I agree with you and I've never been given a fill violation, just wondering if inspector can give me one without doing the calculations himself/herself. Otherwise we get:

Inspector: "You have a box fill violation."
Me: "Nope, I did the calculation in my head and I'm good."
Inspector: "Well it looks overfilled."
Me: "If you think it's overfilled, prove it otherwise delete the violation."

Asking an inspector to prove a violation is the same as asking a policewoman to prove I was speeding. Something they are required to do.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
if he cites you, you are not getting a permit until resovled
if he is reasonable show him the numbers
if you are convinced you are right, 2 choices
bite the bullet
appeal
it's an economic decision

our inspectors have a law (not code) to stand on
it is written that the operator must comply or be shutdown
sometimes shutdown until he complies depending on risk
he can appeal but still must comply first
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
to me , the answer is plain and simple,
since someone in the past made a personal choice to utilize what i assume is a gutter downstream of the panel you spoke of, IIRC, that limits you to 30 un-udjusted current carrying conductors and combined cmil not to exceed 20% cubic area of copper occupation

once upon a time i went down this rabbit hole to try and learn something because i purchased dividers that installed in my 8''x8'' trough, wireway, gutter or whatever you want to call it,, .

I asked many inspectors along the east coast the questions to prevent rework.
I asked, "if i have a full metal divider inside my 8''x8'' gutter, is is "permissable" treat that as two separate paths,,, never got an answer.
my application was 8''x8'' with full metal dividers with removable single cover on the horizontal plane wall mounted up high. you remove the side cover and your looking at two "shelves" so to speak all the way around the room in a "U" Shape.

my objective was to electrically separate my larger conductors from my smaller conductors within this room perimeter "U" shaped gutter.

I just felt like it was the right thing to do , the lower section was the smaller #6 and smaller wires while the top was for higher draw wiring upstream closer to the UT source. I felt like since heat rises, most heat would be on the larger wires and wanted that heat to get out quick, allowing the smaller wires to not be affected because they are in the lower tier of my wire gutter.
Every so often every 8', the electrician cut in K/0's with plugs of 2'' in size for use to "pass through" , up, along the cieling and out to far end loads.

terminology was my biggest learning hurdle, because you need to use the correct term when speaking the words to support your case on thsi box or gutter or trough or wire way or whatever it needs to be called.
Get me the contact info for your appliance repair tech. I like his answer better than yours.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top