fire alarm booster trouble in Sheet metal factory

[boyle78]

I recently installed a new fire alarm booster with new cables to new devices. Everything tested like it should....until we noticed a trouble on the booster. It is so quick that the LED only "blips" on for a fraction of a second. We checked all the cable and all devices for loose connections etc. and found nothing. This install is for a working sheet metal fabrication factory. Impeding voltages, fluctuating frequencies and amperage loads from the various welders, cranes, cutters etc. were never a concern (obviously) and now may actually be causing the issue? We ran unshielded cable and only a small section of the runs are with in 5' of line voltage wires. I'm looking to see if anyone has ever had these issues and how should I go about trouble shooting this. I have gotten ahold of the customer support of the booster manufacturer and they agree that the facility itself with the numerous electrical needs could be to blame...but with no way to resolve it.

The trouble is showing up at the main FACP history, but not reporting to the monitoring company. It's totally random and only happens when the facility is doing business (which also points to voltage irregularities) I have used a data logger in the past and was thinking this would be a good place to start. Relocating the booster is an option, but if the source voltage is to blame it won't do any good. I have to wonder about the building bonding means and have not been able to research it. Any help would be cool!

 

[gadfly56]

I recently installed a new fire alarm booster with new cables to new devices. Everything tested like it should....until we noticed a trouble on the booster. It is so quick that the LED only "blips" on for a fraction of a second. We checked all the cable and all devices for loose connections etc. and found nothing. This install is for a working sheet metal fabrication factory. Impeding voltages, fluctuating frequencies and amperage loads from the various welders, cranes, cutters etc. were never a concern (obviously) and now may actually be causing the issue? We ran unshielded cable and only a small section of the runs are with in 5' of line voltage wires. I'm looking to see if anyone has ever had these issues and how should I go about trouble shooting this. I have gotten ahold of the customer support of the booster manufacturer and they agree that the facility itself with the numerous electrical needs could be to blame...but with no way to resolve it.

The trouble is showing up at the main FACP history, but not reporting to the monitoring company. It's totally random and only happens when the facility is doing business (which also points to voltage irregularities) I have used a data logger in the past and was thinking this would be a good place to start. Relocating the booster is an option, but if the source voltage is to blame it won't do any good. I have to wonder about the building bonding means and have not been able to research it. Any help would be cool!

The easiest thing to check for would be voltage sag, causing the booster to go into trouble for AC. Most panels allow you to delay AC power loss reporting up to 4 hours. If this delay hasn't been selected, try that and see what happens.

 

[boyle78]

The easiest thing to check for would be voltage sag, causing the booster to go into trouble for AC. Most panels allow you to delay AC power loss reporting up to 4 hours. If this delay hasn't been selected, try that and see what happens.

the booster is programmed for the 4 hour AC delay......

 

[gadfly56]

the booster is programmed for the 4 hour AC delay......

Gonna be a troublemaker, eh? Okay, if it's a Wheelock power supply, for example, there are actually six (6) LED's used to diagnose troubles. Does the installation manual offer any clues as to what kind of trouble the LED is indicating?

 

[nhfire77]

I recently installed a new fire alarm booster with new cables to new devices. Everything tested like it should....until we noticed a trouble on the booster. It is so quick that the LED only "blips" on for a fraction of a second. We checked all the cable and all devices for loose connections etc. and found nothing. This install is for a working sheet metal fabrication factory. Impeding voltages, fluctuating frequencies and amperage loads from the various welders, cranes, cutters etc. were never a concern (obviously) and now may actually be causing the issue? We ran unshielded cable and only a small section of the runs are with in 5' of line voltage wires. I'm looking to see if anyone has ever had these issues and how should I go about trouble shooting this. I have gotten ahold of the customer support of the booster manufacturer and they agree that the facility itself with the numerous electrical needs could be to blame...but with no way to resolve it.

The trouble is showing up at the main FACP history, but not reporting to the monitoring company. It's totally random and only happens when the facility is doing business (which also points to voltage irregularities) I have used a data logger in the past and was thinking this would be a good place to start. Relocating the booster is an option, but if the source voltage is to blame it won't do any good. I have to wonder about the building bonding means and have not been able to research it. Any help would be cool!

Is the FACP supposed to report the trouble ? (it should, unless its reporting ac loss as the specific issue, but since there is a delay I'm doubting voltage is an issue)

We need to know the model of the booster,

Are you certain the EOLR is right and tight? (could vibration be shaking one just a little loose?)


Is ground fault protection enabled? (and should it be? depending on the set up)

 

[cadpoint]

I don't know why this system had to be upgraded, I think the customer is throwing
a curve ball and the other existing system was reporting/faulting all the time. I base this of the fact that you installed unshielded, sure match existing!

I'll bet the welder's are using the building steel as their ground!

I'll also assume that there are circuits run without an EGC. That in fact the ground is
the metal raceway. Everything is getting electric noise depending on which piece of equipment is running, this seems easy enough to qualify.

If your allowed to add a booster to a FACP, I've frankly thought that a sytem had to be
supplied by the same orginal supplier to be compatable why not add a isolation transformer in-front of it? I doult this will answer your problems based on the old statement garage in garage out, power wise.

What does an isolation transformer do!

I could not read the specific specifications at squared.com.

My belief is you got put on the hook. But hey FA is not my forte!

Good Luck

 

[MisterCMK]

I recently installed a new fire alarm booster with new cables to new devices. Everything tested like it should....until we noticed a trouble on the booster. It is so quick that the LED only "blips" on for a fraction of a second. We checked all the cable and all devices for loose connections etc. and found nothing. This install is for a working sheet metal fabrication factory. Impeding voltages, fluctuating frequencies and amperage loads from the various welders, cranes, cutters etc. were never a concern (obviously) and now may actually be causing the issue? We ran unshielded cable and only a small section of the runs are with in 5' of line voltage wires. I'm looking to see if anyone has ever had these issues and how should I go about trouble shooting this. I have gotten ahold of the customer support of the booster manufacturer and they agree that the facility itself with the numerous electrical needs could be to blame...but with no way to resolve it.

The trouble is showing up at the main FACP history, but not reporting to the monitoring company. It's totally random and only happens when the facility is doing business (which also points to voltage irregularities) I have used a data logger in the past and was thinking this would be a good place to start. Relocating the booster is an option, but if the source voltage is to blame it won't do any good. I have to wonder about the building bonding means and have not been able to research it. Any help would be cool!

What make/model is the FACP? What make/model is the BPS? How are you tripping the BPS?

 

[boyle78]

the FCPS is a notifier 24S8 tripped from the FACP NAC ct1. I was told that we installed this booster, cable and devices because the old coverage wasn't up to the local FD's liking. It was more cost efficient and easier to just install new equipment. Since my last post, I have been told to swap out the FCPS to another one thinking the original was too sensitive to electrical interference and I have also installed ferrat coils on each of the booster outputs. Loose EOL or devices are not an issue.......the trouble is so quick that the LED barely has time to light up but you can hear the trouble relay activate.

 

[boyle78]

I don't know why this system had to be upgraded, I think the customer is throwing
a curve ball and the other existing system was reporting/faulting all the time. I base this of the fact that you installed unshielded, sure match existing!

I'll bet the welder's are using the building steel as their ground!

I'll also assume that there are circuits run without an EGC. That in fact the ground is
the metal raceway. Everything is getting electric noise depending on which piece of equipment is running, this seems easy enough to qualify.

If your allowed to add a booster to a FACP, I've frankly thought that a sytem had to be
supplied by the same orginal supplier to be compatable why not add a isolation transformer in-front of it? I doult this will answer your problems based on the old statement garage in garage out, power wise.

What does an isolation transformer do!

I could not read the specific specifications at squared.com.

My belief is you got put on the hook. But hey FA is not my forte!

Good Luck

Welders are using the building steel for grounding.....just swapped the FCPS to another unit (same model) and ferrat coils on the loads....next is a data logger on the incoming power.

 

[MisterCMK]

Welders are using the building steel for grounding.....just swapped the FCPS to another unit (same model) and ferrat coils on the loads....next is a data logger on the incoming power.

Remove your output circuits and resistor then out at the power supply. Leave the sense circuit hooked up. See if it continues to go into trouble.

 

[nhfire77]

Welders are using the building steel for grounding.....just swapped the FCPS to another unit (same model) and ferrat coils on the loads....next is a data logger on the incoming power.

Is the trouble condition continuing with the new board?

You mentioned the LED flickers on/off in your first post. There are 4 yellow trouble LEDs on an FCPS, which one is flickering?


If, this is an AC power issue, the fail safe trouble relay will instantly react, regardless of the 2 hour delay, or it should.

And you can monitor trouble via the fail safe trouble relay, eliminating the internal trouble contact as being weak for some reason, DIP switch 4 will need to be on as well.

 

[sparkyrick]

Is the wiring in conduit or FA cable? I once chased a fault on a notification circuit that was driving me nuts. It turned out to be a FA cable zip-tied too tightly to some threaded rod. It cut through the insulation, causing the fault. I wish FA cable used better insulation, LOL!

 

[boyle78]

Is the trouble condition continuing with the new board?

You mentioned the LED flickers on/off in your first post. There are 4 yellow trouble LEDs on an FCPS, which one is flickering?


If, this is an AC power issue, the fail safe trouble relay will instantly react, regardless of the 2 hour delay, or it should.

And you can monitor trouble via the fail safe trouble relay, eliminating the internal trouble contact as being weak for some reason, DIP switch 4 will need to be on as well.

The NAC trouble led was the one lighting up. The cable is not in conduit, and should have been in this environment, but that's not my call. I'm heading back to the site this week and I'm anxious to check the FACP history to see if the changes made a differance

 

[nhfire77]

The NAC trouble led was the one lighting up. The cable is not in conduit, and should have been in this environment, but that's not my call. I'm heading back to the site this week and I'm anxious to check the FACP history to see if the changes made a differance

If its not fixed, and only occurs when the equipment is running, ensure the EOLR is the right one (4700 ohm) and is secured with stakons. If it continues open all j boxes and check all splices and connections. It's almost certainly a mechanical problem ( loose or shorting wires )

 

[boyle78]

If its not fixed, and only occurs when the equipment is running, ensure the EOLR is the right one (4700 ohm) and is secured with stakons. If it continues open all j boxes and check all splices and connections. It's almost certainly a mechanical problem ( loose or shorting wires )

All connections, wires, splices and devices have been checked and rechecked.... I didn't get sent to the site this week after all and will have to wait till next week.