Fire Alarm devices for machine-less elevator and machine room elevator

Cartoon1

Cartoon1

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
My understanding for fire alarm devices for elevators. (excluding special cases). Scenario below is for 2 or 3 levels elevator.

Machine-less elevator (no equipment room, equipment in hoist-way):
  • Smoke detectors outside each elevator lobby floor for recall protocol.
  • Smoke detector in the hoist-way for recall and flash helmet in elevator.
  • Heat detector within 2 feet if there is a sprinkler in the hoist-way for shunt trip.
Elevator with machine room:
  • Smoke detectors outside each elevator lobby floor for recall protocol.
  • Smoke detector in the elevator equipment room for recall and flash helmet in elevator.
  • Heat detector in the elevator equipment room and hoist-way if sprinkler is there for shunt trip.
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My question is
  1. When are heat detectors required outside elevator lobby at different floors instead of smoke? Because i know i have seen heat detectors outside elevator lobby on different floors instead of smoke before.
  2. Is smoke detector required in the hoist-way of an hydraulic elevator with a machine room? if the elevator machine room has a smoke detector there.

Thank you
 
Cartoon1 said:
My understanding for fire alarm devices for elevators. (excluding special cases). Scenario below is for 2 or 3 levels elevator.

Machine-less elevator (no equipment room, equipment in hoist-way):
  • Smoke detectors outside each elevator lobby floor for recall protocol.
  • Smoke detector in the hoist-way for recall and flash helmet in elevator.
  • Heat detector within 2 feet if there is a sprinkler in the hoist-way for shunt trip.
Elevator with machine room:
  • Smoke detectors outside each elevator lobby floor for recall protocol.
  • Smoke detector in the elevator equipment room for recall and flash helmet in elevator.
  • Heat detector in the elevator equipment room and hoist-way if sprinkler is there for shunt trip.
---------------------

My question is
  1. When are heat detectors required outside elevator lobby at different floors instead of smoke? Because i know i have seen heat detectors outside elevator lobby on different floors instead of smoke before.
  2. Is smoke detector required in the hoist-way of an hydraulic elevator with a machine room? if the elevator machine room has a smoke detector there.

Thank you
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1. Generally speaking, heat detectors would not be allowed as replacements for smoke detectors in an elevator lobby. The exception is if the environment is not suitable for the smoke detector, such as a lobby in a parking garage, exposed to the ambient temperature and/or weather.
2. The smoke detector would be required if there is a sprinkler in the hoist-way (pit doesn't count) or if there is a smoke vent at the top of the hoist-way. One would be required in the elevator machine room. If there is no sprinkler in the hoist-way, you are not allowed to put a smoke detector in it.
 
gadfly56 said:
1. Generally speaking, heat detectors would not be allowed as replacements for smoke detectors in an elevator lobby. The exception is if the environment is not suitable for the smoke detector, such as a lobby in a parking garage, exposed to the ambient temperature and/or weather.
2. The smoke detector would be required if there is a sprinkler in the hoist-way (pit doesn't count) or if there is a smoke vent at the top of the hoist-way. One would be required in the elevator machine room. If there is no sprinkler in the hoist-way, you are not allowed to put a smoke detector in it.
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That is very helpful thank you. I do have more questions that comes up in that case based on those responses.

1. Do they make smoke type detectors for exterior locations outside of lobby or is heat detector a must in those situations? i have a situation where the elevator opens to an exterior location.
2. So smoke detectors are required in the elevator machine room anyways with or without sprinklers. In a machineless elevator they are required only if there is a sprinkler at the top of hoist-way or above the lowest recall level?
3. Are heat detectors required within a sprinkler in the machine room or at the top of a hoist-way if there is a sprinkler at top?
 
Cartoon1 said:
That is very helpful thank you. I do have more questions that comes up in that case based on those responses.

1. Do they make smoke type detectors for exterior locations outside of lobby or is heat detector a must in those situations? i have a situation where the elevator opens to an exterior location.
2. So smoke detectors are required in the elevator machine room anyways with or without sprinklers. In a machineless elevator they are required only if there is a sprinkler at the top of hoist-way or above the lowest recall level?
3. Are heat detectors required within a sprinkler in the machine room or at the top of a hoist-way if there is a sprinkler at top?
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1. No manufacturer that I am aware of makes a smoke detector suitable for exterior locations, at least in the US. I believe there is a brand in the UK, Apollo, that is listed to -10C or something. In the US, the UL listing is limited to 32F - 100F, sometimes 110F.
2. Yes, in the machine room to trigger recall, with or without sprinklers. In a machineless elevator, you need one 5 feet above the controller even without sprinklers in the hoistway.
3. Heat detectors are required within 24" of each sprinkler in a machine room or at the top of the hoistway. If sprinklers are properly installed in the pit, they do not require a heat detector.
 
gadfly56 said:
1. No manufacturer that I am aware of makes a smoke detector suitable for exterior locations, at least in the US. I believe there is a brand in the UK, Apollo, that is listed to -10C or something. In the US, the UL listing is limited to 32F - 100F, sometimes 110F.
2. Yes, in the machine room to trigger recall, with or without sprinklers. In a machineless elevator, you need one 5 feet above the controller even without sprinklers in the hoistway. This is still somewhat fluid, as machineless elevators are a recent phenomenon, code-wise, for fire alarm. I don't think people really know how to address the issue.
3. Heat detectors are required within 24" of each sprinkler in a machine room or at the top of the hoistway. If sprinklers are properly installed in the pit, they do not require a heat detector.
Click to expand...
 
I have seen heat detection designated for "Fire Service Access Elevators" in the lobbies of High-Rise buildings to monitor temperatures per NFPA 72 (19) 21.5* Fire Service Access Elevators.
Annex A.21.5 The continuous monitoring of smoke and temperature is to allow the responding fire fighters to know when the tenability conditions at the floor elevator lobbies are changing. This can be accomplished at a minimum by monitoring Elevator lobbies, machine rooms, control rooms, machinery spaces, or control spaces smoke detector(s) for the presence of smoke and a minimum of three ranges of temperature in the elevator lobbies, machine rooms, machinery spaces, or control rooms that provide full bodily access for fire fighters, as follows:

(1) Normal ≤90°F (32°C)

(2) Monitoring (supervisory) between 90°F (32°C) and 135°F (57°C)

(3) Unsafe (alarm) above 135°F (57°C)
 
JA 2025 said:
I have seen heat detection designated for "Fire Service Access Elevators" in the lobbies of High-Rise buildings to monitor temperatures per NFPA 72 (19) 21.5* Fire Service Access Elevators.
Annex A.21.5 The continuous monitoring of smoke and temperature is to allow the responding fire fighters to know when the tenability conditions at the floor elevator lobbies are changing. This can be accomplished at a minimum by monitoring Elevator lobbies, machine rooms, control rooms, machinery spaces, or control spaces smoke detector(s) for the presence of smoke and a minimum of three ranges of temperature in the elevator lobbies, machine rooms, machinery spaces, or control rooms that provide full bodily access for fire fighters, as follows:

(1) Normal ≤90°F (32°C)

(2) Monitoring (supervisory) between 90°F (32°C) and 135°F (57°C)

(3) Unsafe (alarm) above 135°F (57°C)
Click to expand...
Very interesting. I haven't had to deal with this in my practice yet. I know that Siemens markets a multi-criteria smoke detector that includes temperature sensing. You could probably program those responses in the supervisory software.
 
So, if you have a Machine-less elevator with no sprinkler are you required to have a smoke detector at the top of shaft for recall and flashing hat? This is a 3-story building. I am finding mixed answers all over and would like to submit it right the first time. thank you in advance.
 
I am in NYS. The NYSBC references the 2016 edition of ASME A17.1. I have worked with many QEI's that enforced the following and confirm this is completed prior to any QEI inspections for projects that I work on. Flashing hat is required for both the EMR and the hoistway per ASME A17.1 (16), Section 2.27.4.2 (d). With MRL's, the hoistway is obviously the machine space. Hope this helps.

SMOKE DETECTORS REQUIRED FOR HOISTWAYS AND MACHINE ROOMS/SPACES: For Hoistways that are sprinklered or non-sprinklered, ASME A17.1 (16) Section 2.27.3.2.1 says that in jurisdictions not enforcing the NBCC, smoke detectors or other automatic fire detectors in environments not suitable for smoke detectors (fire alarm initiating devices) used to initiate Phase I Emergency Recall Operation shall be installed in conformance with the requirements of NFPA 72, and shall be located,
(a) at each elevator lobby served by the elevator
(b) in the associated elevator machine room, machinery space containing a motor controller or driving machine, control space, or control room
(c) in the elevator hoistway, when sprinklers are located in those hoistways

NOTE [2.27.3.2.1(b)]: A machinery space containing a motor controller or driving machine located in the elevator hoistway, or a control space located in the elevator hoistway requires a fire alarm initiating device regardless of the presence of sprinklers.
 
Thank you much, that is about what I was thinking but hearing different things from others. So, in this case I would have to go with Vesda or something like it as this AHJ no longer allows actual detectors in the shaft any longer.
 
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