i work for a fire alarm company who, as of late has been trying to get our techs to do our quarterly fire alarm inspections as one man tests, being only 1 person in a building. now i know common sense should always prevail but without being able to find something in either the nfpa 72, life safety or any other code book, they will continue to hang their hat on the old, "where does it say you cant". we have been refusing to do so, but without something in hand , saying differently its becoming tough. so, if anyone can point me to anything to help, would be greatly appreciated.
Fire alarm inspection code question.
- Thread starter neko988
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There are no restrictions in NFPA 1, 72 or 101 telling you how many people it takes to test, except of course the common sense restriction. You could argue, if you leave the panel and a real fire develops and no one is at the panel to differentiate that, its a liability problem, but it sounds like that won't work with them
I do have a couple of jurisdictions that may not have it in writing that someone has to be at the panel during testing, but if you don't they yell at you, so calling the AHJ might get you somewhere. It also might get you in trouble with the boss.
Testing can done by one man, if its a small enough system, but if you are doing quarterly inspections so are these fairly sizable systems?
Its a customer convenience/labor cost/safety issue for me. They typically don't want any more disruptions than necessary, we don't want to waste one guy on a job that could be done more efficiently with two. I am not going to send one guy to do an hospital inspection on his own either. Is the company billing hourly for the test??
We flat rate our testing, so we send two guys on 70% of inspections, 10% three or more, and 20% is one man. The goal is to test a quickly, efficiently, but completely.
The one man jobs have maybe 10 SLC devices and 15 notification devices and can be accomplished in approximately two hours.
Not to sound condescending but, if you don't want to work there, the door is always open. I have left an employer for demanding unsafe work practices over a long period.
I do have a couple of jurisdictions that may not have it in writing that someone has to be at the panel during testing, but if you don't they yell at you, so calling the AHJ might get you somewhere. It also might get you in trouble with the boss.
Testing can done by one man, if its a small enough system, but if you are doing quarterly inspections so are these fairly sizable systems?
Its a customer convenience/labor cost/safety issue for me. They typically don't want any more disruptions than necessary, we don't want to waste one guy on a job that could be done more efficiently with two. I am not going to send one guy to do an hospital inspection on his own either. Is the company billing hourly for the test??
We flat rate our testing, so we send two guys on 70% of inspections, 10% three or more, and 20% is one man. The goal is to test a quickly, efficiently, but completely.
The one man jobs have maybe 10 SLC devices and 15 notification devices and can be accomplished in approximately two hours.
Not to sound condescending but, if you don't want to work there, the door is always open. I have left an employer for demanding unsafe work practices over a long period.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
There is nothing other than common sense and economics driving how many techs are required to test a fire alarm system. Higher end panels such as Siemens MXL or XLS will allow you to choose which areas are placed in walk test. If you have a 30-story high rise, you may choose to walk test 3 floors at a time, for example.
Certainly there can be liability issues, especially if the testing runs across several days for a very large system.
If they are also pressuring you to finish the testing in an unreasonable time period (1 minute per device, say), please note that in Las Vegas two fire alarm service technicians are facing a felony indictment for falsifying their test reports.
Security101
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Indiana
I agree and think thats a good stopping point before adding another guy, as long as there aren't huge obstacle's (of any kind) to work around.
We usually have at least two (one panel, one inspect) on anything bigger, with radios (including a facilities staff radio if available to ward off reports of problems), and work very closely with staff and mgt.
This is usually a big day for the facility and can be very disrupting. Get to know them well and they will usually chip in and help with the small stuff and understand any issues and delays you might encounter.
With todays economic state it may be hard to get your employer to add people so you'll just have to hang in there, do your best plus a little, and be as professional as you can be.
Good luck!
Jim
- Location
- Massachusetts
I can't think of any FA inspection that I have sent more than one guy, we do many tests each year (maybe 75) and many are large systems.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I see no common sense in needing two men for every test.
To me that sounds like typical technician talk, they always want two guys to do anything.
MichaelGP3
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco bay area
- Occupation
- Fire Alarm Technician
Wow. A lot of running around for 1 person to accomplish elevator recall, elevator shunt trip testing, verifying fan/damper shutdowns, main panel/remote annunciator displays & minimum/maximum delay times for waterflow switches. Plus keeping an eye out for the printer running out of paper or jamming. Now, if your inspector is getting help from a building engineer or security personnel stationed at the panel with a two-way radio, that's different. My point being that if you don't have the help or cooperation from the building, that running around time can justify the wages for a second inspector in a large facility.
MichaelGP3
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco bay area
- Occupation
- Fire Alarm Technician
Wow. A lot of running around for 1 person to accomplish elevator recall, elevator shunt trip testing, verifying fan/damper shutdowns, main panel/remote annunciator displays & minimum/maximum delay times for waterflow switches. Plus keeping an eye out for the printer running out of paper or jamming. Now, if your inspector is getting help from a building engineer or security personnel stationed at the panel with a two-way radio, that's different. My point being that if you don't have the help or cooperation from the building, that running around time can justify the wages for a second inspector.
I'm recalling 1 facility where we had 4 and sometimes 5 people on site for a FA inspection. In hospitals, we always have 3.
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Becuase flat rate with two guys is more profitable if they are familiar with the system and effcient. Since I'm the boss, I need to manage my time. I choose to sit and the panel and send a guy out. But, I know what you mean as I routinely did all of these inspections by myself for years. Now, I can bang out almost twice as many devices per day with a second guy. Plus, I get to post on this forum (pause to acknowledge alarm on panel) while working
I do have on super tech that I confidently send out on his own to test very large Systems. I guess it comes done to your comfort level with the work being performed.
to me ,its more about liability and proper testing then anything else. i don't see how one man can test a large building alone. we do mostly commercial work, with many large apartment, housing blds. how do you correctly test all a/v devices in a say, 7 story building? add more say one without a elevator. do you ring horns or evac tone until you are able to get back down 7 story's to silence, confirm point and reset? flip side, you do a silent test, make your way up 7 flights, horns bypassed, trip a point, get back down to panel and another zone had come in while you were off somewhere else in the building with no one at the panel. safety and liability reasons alone to me seem that a true one man test for anything other then a single story account is truly not the way to go....regardless of economical reasons. you say youre a owner or manager, who sends out one guy to do the testing, sometimes in large complexes? my question is when that tech is alone, and something goes wrong while hes no where near the panel, albeit shut down or live whos taken the blame? you as the company or him, as the license holder onsite? we all know its the man onsite saying its what he was told to do......i will say i am pretty surprised that no code has anything written up on this subject. i know i have spoke to several AHJ's and all say i better never catch just one guy testing anything in my jurisdiction. as said before, there's a lot more to testing then just tripping a smoke or pull in most buildings expecting one man to do this, efficiently . safely and effectively is mind boggling. even with panels that provide walk test features, to me doesn't seem like the proper way to test any type of a life safely system. now , i don't do many inspections, i mostly install, service and programming. but when i hear the buildings guys are being asked to test alone it amazes me. and let me ask when you guys have your final tests with the AHJ, do you send one guy for those? explaining to the fire Marshall that he will run to one end of a building, trip a device and return to the panel to give him the description? if not i don't see how a regular inspection is in anyway different.
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