Fire alarm question

[mstrlucky74]

If you have an active system on a floor...say 15k sq Ft office space floor and the system only controls the devices on this floor. If a complete gut/demo is happening ........

#1-are you allowed to just demo all fire alarm devices and have no coverage during the construction?
#2- what if they show some devices to remain during demo to temp support during construction and then reinstall. I guess you would have to modified the wiring as some devices are going to Be eliminated during demo.

Thanks

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[gadfly56]

If you have an active system on a floor...say 15k sq Ft office space floor and the system only controls the devices on this floor. If a complete gut/demo is happening ........

#1-are you allowed to just demo all fire alarm devices and have no coverage during the construction?
#2- what if they show some devices to remain during demo to temp support during construction and then reinstall. I guess you would have to modified the wiring as some devices are going to Be eliminated during demo.

Thanks

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The real answer? You won't like it. Most contracts call for the fire alarm coverage to be unbroken throughout the demo and installation process. That means carefully taking down everything around the fire alarm devices without damaging them or the wire...OK, you can stop laughing now. This is an issue that absolutely must be discussed with the fire department, the AHJ, and the customer/tenant's risk management group. There is no one size fits all solution.

 

[mstrlucky74]

The real answer? You won't like it. Most contracts call for the fire alarm coverage to be unbroken throughout the demo and installation process. That means carefully taking down everything around the fire alarm devices without damaging them or the wire...OK, you can stop laughing now. This is an issue that absolutely must be discussed with the fire department, the AHJ, and the customer/tenant's risk management group. There is no one size fits all solution.

Hmmm..well ok

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[mtfallsmikey]

Don't laugh...gadfly56 is correct. I'm in the "customer" category (one of those building engineers everyone loves to hate, but I'm a nice guy), getting ready to completely gut a floor in one of my buildings, will be bypassing all devices on that floor each day during the project, but the system will have to be back up before everyone leaves for the day. Same goes for the sprinks who will be inverting the heads since the ceiling is coming out. I made that very clear to the GC doing the demo.

 

[mstrlucky74]

Don't laugh...gadfly56 is correct. I'm in the "customer" category (one of those building engineers everyone loves to hate, but I'm a nice guy), getting ready to completely gut a floor in one of my buildings, will be bypassing all devices on that floor each day during the project, but the system will have to be back up before everyone leaves for the day. Same goes for the sprinks who will be inverting the heads since the ceiling is coming out. I made that very clear to the GC doing the demo.

Understand. So what exactly do you mean they will bypass all devices during demo? How will that be accomplished?

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[gadfly56]

Understand. So what exactly do you mean they will bypass all devices during demo? How will that be accomplished?

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If the system is addressable, you can usually access the program from the panel to disable one or all the devices on the SLC loop(s). This will put the panel into trouble until all the devices are re-enabled. If you have a conventional panel you can simply lift the IDC loops. Please DO NOT put a spare EOL resistor/device at the panel to make it shut up; you couldn't afford the cost if something goes sideways in the middle of the night and someone forgot to land the circuits back into the panel.

Any disabling of the fire alarm panel needs to be accompanied by a fire watch plan. Some jurisdictions force you to hire a firefighter, at union rates, to be the fire watch. Otherwise it could be your employee, or the customer's personnel. In any event, that individual's sole purpose is to patrol the affected area for a fire condition. You can't just task an apprentice with looking around "every once in a while". If you have multiple floors disabled, you may have to have a fire watcher for each floor, depending on the total area involved.

 

[mstrlucky74]

If the system is addressable, you can usually access the program from the panel to disable one or all the devices on the SLC loop(s). This will put the panel into trouble until all the devices are re-enabled. If you have a conventional panel you can simply lift the IDC loops. Please DO NOT put a spare EOL resistor/device at the panel to make it shut up; you couldn't afford the cost if something goes sideways in the middle of the night and someone forgot to land the circuits back into the panel.

Any disabling of the fire alarm panel needs to be accompanied by a fire watch plan. Some jurisdictions force you to hire a firefighter, at union rates, to be the fire watch. Otherwise it could be your employee, or the customer's personnel. In any event, that individual's sole purpose is to patrol the affected area for a fire condition. You can't just task an apprentice with looking around "every once in a while". If you have multiple floors disabled, you may have to have a fire watcher for each floor, depending on the total area involved.

Thanks..so while demo is happening and you disable the panel will the trouble create sounds/tones on the system? Can that be silenced? Thanks

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[mtfallsmikey]

On my FACP, I can bypass the elevator devices, preaction system, cafeteria hood system, fire pumps, each floor, all A/V's, I call the system out with our monitoring co. and put it in test mode/disregard.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

For NJ the fire watch requirements are found in the International Fire Code 2015 901.7

 

[gadfly56]

Thanks..so while demo is happening and you disable the panel will the trouble create sounds/tones on the system? Can that be silenced? Thanks

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Yes. You may have to "Acknowledge" the signal before you can silence it. The exact sequence depends on the panel you have. Check your manual. Also, if you have any troubles on the panel that go past 24 hours without being resolved, the panel will trigger the audible alarm again. This "resound" feature is a code requirement.

 

[Strathead]

Don't laugh...gadfly56 is correct. I'm in the "customer" category (one of those building engineers everyone loves to hate, but I'm a nice guy), getting ready to completely gut a floor in one of my buildings, will be bypassing all devices on that floor each day during the project, but the system will have to be back up before everyone leaves for the day. Same goes for the sprinks who will be inverting the heads since the ceiling is coming out. I made that very clear to the GC doing the demo.

I am curious exactly what you mean. I have worked in high rises many times. I would always expect that the pull stations at the exits, elevator lobby smoke detectors and sprinkler system and other building systems (smoke evac etc.) remain active on a completely gutted floor when no one is occupying (construction). I have never done a high rise without sprinklers so I don't include area smoke coverage here. Notification and area smokes shouldn't be necessary during the remodel day or night. If you desired it, I would assume it would be OK to put a temporary horn strobe in an easily visible location. I can't imagine requiring smoke detectors to be covered every day and active every night. Not that it would be wrong. Whatever the customer is willing to pay for is fine.

 

[gadfly56]

For NJ the fire watch requirements are found in the International Fire Code 2015 901.7

That's a great resource, Rick. It would be a good starting point for anyone facing this issue.

 

[mstrlucky74]

On a offix e floor demo they don't ever have fire watch. Heard a guy say " bag and tag" referring to the fire alarm devices to remain when the space was to be gutted. Anyone know what that means?

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[gadfly56]

On a offix e floor demo they don't ever have fire watch. Heard a guy say " bag and tag" referring to the fire alarm devices to remain when the space was to be gutted. Anyone know what that means?

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That is mostly for the smoke detectors. Everything get demoed except the FA conductors which are wire-tied to whatever structure remains (e.g. bar joists). Individual devices are sealed with plastic bags over them to keep out the dust from the demo and construction.

 

[RumRunner]

On a offix e floor demo they don't ever have fire watch. Heard a guy say " bag and tag" referring to the fire alarm devices to remain when the space was to be gutted. Anyone know what that means?

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“Bag and tag” could mean remove and identify each device. You do this after going through the PLC module where you disable each input signal from each addressable input signal from each individual smoke detector (which you distinctly mentioned).

Each removed detector will be put away for safekeeping in the duration of the demolition.
We don't know what intentions they have.

They may re-purpose the devices at different location without having to reprogram the PLC.
Just reactivate the previously disabled inputs and using the same addresses.

Saves them from reprogramming the entire caboodle.

Wrapping them with Ziplock is what painters do.

 

[gadfly56]

“Bag and tag” could mean remove and identify each device. You do this after going through the PLC module where you disable each input signal from each addressable input signal from each individual smoke detector (which you distinctly mentioned).

Each removed detector will be put away for safekeeping in the duration of the demolition.
We don't know what intentions they have.

They may re-purpose the devices at different location without having to reprogram the PLC.
Just reactivate the previously disabled inputs and using the same addresses.

Saves them from reprogramming the entire caboodle.

Wrapping them with Ziplock is what painters do.

You don't want to do that with EST panels. They actually measure the distance from each device to the panel and it creates a "map" of the system. If you relocate devices, you can get the much-dreaded "map fault".

 

[mstrlucky74]

You don't want to do that with EST panels. They actually measure the distance from each device to the panel and it creates a "map" of the system. If you relocate devices, you can get the much-dreaded "map fault".

So what would you do during a demo for existing devices to remain or be relocated.

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[gadfly56]

So what would you do during a demo for existing devices to remain or be relocated.

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The easiest thing for you to do is take each device of the surface it's mounted to, bag it and tape the bag shut and then secure it to some element you're pretty sure isn't going to get demo'd like a column or bar joist. This doesn't help a lot if the goal is to keep the system operational during the remodel. Talk to the customer, the GC, and the fire official about the approach to take. Everybody needs to be on board with the solution. You shouldn't do this work in a vacuum.