fire dept and jurisdiction

[martim1]

My FD want to take the few existing radio communicators off it's outdated receivers. This is making us go through a central house like ADT, Cintas, or other.

Can they make us have to pay for this service?

I have read through the NFPA 72 and found nothing on the authorities having jurisdiction. As an industrial facility do we need, by code, to be monitored? If so, as long as the central "house" is recording, testing, and in compliance of the NFPA 72 there should be no hoops to jump through. Don't get me wrong I want to have supervision on my fire circuits. But is there a better way? or does it come down to cost?

Does anyone have any insight to this?

 

[K8MHZ]

My FD want to take the few existing radio communicators off it's outdated receivers. This is making us go through a central house like ADT, Cintas, or other.

Can they make us have to pay for this service?

I have read through the NFPA 72 and found nothing on the authorities having jurisdiction. As an industrial facility do we need, by code, to be monitored? If so, as long as the central "house" is recording, testing, and in compliance of the NFPA 72 there should be no hoops to jump through. Don't get me wrong I want to have supervision on my fire circuits. But is there a better way? or does it come down to cost?

Does anyone have any insight to this?

This may fall under the jurisdiction of the FCC. You may have to have a special license to work on public communications radio systems. At one time, you had to have a commercial radio license to work on any commercial system.

The FCC keeps a database of all commercial and public service transmitters and the systems they comprise. Any change would likely have to be approved by the FCC and once completed a change in the info on the database must be entered. That is necessary for frequency coordination.

Let me guess.....the FD went from the 2 meter (150 Mhz) band to the 800 Mhz band, now using a trunked system, and the 2 meter equipment is now obsolete.

 

[nhfire77]

My FD want to take the few existing radio communicators off it's outdated receivers. This is making us go through a central house like ADT, Cintas, or other.

Can they make us have to pay for this service?

I have read through the NFPA 72 and found nothing on the authorities having jurisdiction. As an industrial facility do we need, by code, to be monitored? If so, as long as the central "house" is recording, testing, and in compliance of the NFPA 72 there should be no hoops to jump through. Don't get me wrong I want to have supervision on my fire circuits. But is there a better way? or does it come down to cost?

Does anyone have any insight to this?

The FD would need to have the legal authority to require the system to be monitored, if there wasn't already an insurance requirement or compulsory need for monitoring in the local and/or state fire/building code.

I know of several local FD's that have mandated communication methods change. Generally they are requiring radio boxes to the tune of $4000-$10,000 or more, installed.

Tell the FD you gotta justify this to the bean counters and you need something in writing or a local code reference that mandates monitoring. Since you are amenable to monitoring, I'd just take the hit and get someone to put a basic dialer in, if there are already two analog phone lines near the panel. Could be very simple and cheap. You won't have to "jump through any hoops", don't forget annual testing though.

You have other options if analog phone lines are not easily available. Cellular and or IP communicators, private radio to central station system etc.

As far as the existing transmitter, powering it down and removing the can and antenna shouldn't require any special license. I don't think K8MHZ realizes (no offense) you're talking about a alarm radio communicator, not a two way radio system for portable radios. In fact, if we were to take over a radio to central station, we could be using some of the wiring from the old radio to the new dialer. We would remove the old equipment for you. The FD may own the radio itself, but sounds like they don't want it.

 

[iwire]

I know of several local FD's that have mandated communication methods change. Generally they are requiring radio boxes to the tune of $4000-$10,000 or more, installed.

.

I have one of those to do near Boston in the next few weeks and yes it is just a little over 10k by the time we buy the Sigcom radio box and get an antenna up on the roof.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I have one of those to do near Boston in the next few weeks and yes it is just a little over 10k by the time we buy the Sigcom radio box and get an antenna up on the roof.

That sounds very high. Here the install is normally less than $500 and the owner leases the radio for about $70 a month. This is less than what they were paying for the leased lines that they were using for the old reverse polarity alarm notification system. If you want to have a direct link to the city for your alarms, this is the only option. If you don't want to use the radio system you can contract with private party central station monitoring service. The radios are AES-IntelliNet.

 

[iwire]

That sounds very high. Here the install is normally less than $500 and the owner leases the radio for about $70 a month.

Here the building owner must purchase the radio box. They must use the manufacturer that particular area has gone with. Many areas around me use Sigcom boxes and our cost for it with all the needed accessories, (antenna, mount, coax etc) is approaching 6K.

This is less than what they were paying for the leased lines that they were using for the old reverse polarity alarm notification system.

Here in the areas that used the municipal hard lines there was no fee, but again the buidling owner would have purchased a Gamewell master box to connect to the municipal lines.

If you want to have a direct link to the city for your alarms, this is the only option

In many areas around here it is not an option it is a requirement usually based on size and use of the building

If you don't want to use the radio system you can contract with private party central station monitoring service. The radios are AES-IntelliNet.

Almost all systems in this area have central station monitoring regardless of a direct FD connection or not. I see AES used here for that along with POTs lines or Internet.

As I do a lot of retail work if I have to work on a FACP I sometimes have to notify the FD, the central station and the stores headquarters as they also monitor for alarms and troubles. It can be a real pain.

 

[nhfire77]

$4000-$6000 is cost for a king fisher or digitize radio. An AES radio is way way way cheaper and better. You may also see that technology under the Keltron name. They are transceivers, not just a one/two way radio. If, you have an AES intellinet dealer in your area, and you can get signal, it's the best option for commercial fire monitoring. Constantly monitored for integrity, low monthly cost, no reliance on the phone company or cell provider. The central station owns and controls the repeaters and receivers. It's a true end to end communication solution. It's not perfect, but it's the best option.

I normally get a angry look when that little red box with an antenna on the side of the building breaks 10k.

 

[nhfire77]

As I do a lot of retail work if I have to work on a FACP I sometimes have to notify the FD, the central station and the stores headquarters as they also monitor for alarms and troubles. It can be a real pain.

Yea, then call everyone back and inform them the radio is dead and they'll need a fire dept fire watch, and the manager has to stay over night with the fire watch. I, however, will be back in the morning, after explaining to the stores headquarters why you'll need a NTE over ride for $7000 Not that that has ever happened

 

[iwire]

We work for a large outfit out of VA and they always think I am giving them a line of bull when I say that 5 hours of a 6 hour bill were spent waiting in the parking lot for the FD to come and plug a box out and later to plug it back in when done.

The sent us two emails requesting we provide a list of all the MA cities and towns that this might happen and which ones require permits to even touch the system. I told them as soon as they issue a PO for our time compiling the list we would be happy to do so.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...Here in the areas that used the municipal hard lines there was no fee, but again the buidling owner would have purchased a Gamewell master box to connect to the municipal lines.

The old leased lines connected to ADT equipment in our central dispatch. The owner payed a fee for the leased line as well as to ADT for the service. There was no municipal owned equipment.

In many areas around here it is not an option it is a requirement usually based on size and use of the building

Here automatic notification is still required by local codes, but we were advised that we cannot require a direct connection to the city. We can only require automatic notification. The owner has the option of a direct connection or private service. The only thing I don't like about the private service is that the NFPA permits up to a 4 minute delay between the time that the monitoring service receives the alarm and the time we receive it. I know that most of the time it is a lot quicker than that, but the standard permits the 4 minute delay.

...Almost all systems in this area have central station monitoring regardless of a direct FD connection or not. I see AES used here for that along with POTs lines or Internet.

I am not aware of any of our connections that use more than one method for alarm transmission to our dispatch. Why would you need or want to have both a direct connection to the city and a private monitoring service?

As I do a lot of retail work if I have to work on a FACP I sometimes have to notify the FD, the central station and the stores headquarters as they also monitor for alarms and troubles. It can be a real pain.

That would be a pain.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

$4000-$6000 is cost for a king fisher or digitize radio. An AES radio is way way way cheaper and better. You may also see that technology under the Keltron name. They are transceivers, not just a one/two way radio. If, you have an AES intellinet dealer in your area, and you can get signal, it's the best option for commercial fire monitoring. Constantly monitored for integrity, low monthly cost, no reliance on the phone company or cell provider. The central station owns and controls the repeaters and receivers. It's a true end to end communication solution. It's not perfect, but it's the best option.

I normally get a angry look when that little red box with an antenna on the side of the building breaks 10k.

With our system the radio equipment is owned by a thrid party company, and the reveiving equipment is installed in our central dispatch center. The customer pays the third party provider.
As far as repeaters, there is no need for them if there are enough stations. The radios act in a mesh system to send and reveive the alarms. If there are enough radios in the system, it is set up so that each radio has six paths to the central via the other radios in the system. We don't have that many radios connected, so I doubt that each has the six paths.

 

[nhfire77]

4 minutes? What time frame from 72 are you referring to? You mean retransmission time?


Why would you want a direct connect with another format? For one RMR, recurring monthly revenue, the monitoring fee. But, that's not really it. I want to be able to view all the signals being sent. It helps with trouble calls, you can be prepared, for instance a low battery signal from a FACP may require 35 AH batteries. (we keep records of battery sizes in job folders) We don't keep those in vans. Seeing the low batt signal allows me to send the batts with the tech.

Phone lines are a must for all commercial panels for remote programming, downloading event history and detector sensitivity. Recently, AES has added the FireTap, which can allow for that, so does some IP communicators.

It's a huge PITA when I get a call: Ummm it's beeping and a yellow lights on. And they can't or arent allowed to open the panel and look at what it is. I recognize that we get paid to visit and diagnose problems, being prepared to minimize return trips is a huge benefit for my customers.

 

[nhfire77]

With our system the radio equipment is owned by a thrid party company, and the reveiving equipment is installed in our central dispatch center. The customer pays the third party provider.
As far as repeaters, there is no need for them if there are enough stations. The radios act in a mesh system to send and reveive the alarms. If there are enough radios in the system, it is set up so that each radio has six paths to the central via the other radios in the system. We don't have that many radios connected, so I doubt that each has the six paths.

I know, I said they were transceivers(tranmitter/receiver: AES radios, and personally I love them). Digitize and king fisher are one way rf, and when the municipality has dead zones, they have to provide repeaters.

The third party provider is a shady thing. It rubs up against the commerce clause of the constitution. For instance, you cannot tell me I have to use CAT 30 keys for all pull stations panels etc, that's unenforcable, but almost no one challenges the FD. The alternative to that would be: "All panels, cabinets and pull station locks shall be keyed alike." Now, you can use any key, as long as they match everywhere in the facility.

You should allow any one to buy from any company. It is just required to be compatible with your receiver. I could progam any one way radio to be compatible with any receiver. Consumers should have the right to buy the AES radio from whomever they choose.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
The third party provider is a shady thing. It rubs up against the commerce clause of the constitution. For instance, you cannot tell me I have to use CAT 30 keys for all pull stations panels etc, that's unenforcable, but almost no one challenges the FD. The alternative to that would be: "All panels, cabinets and pull station locks shall be keyed alike." Now, you can use any key, as long as they match everywhere in the facility.

I can see the requirement for a specific key for fire alarm equipment through out the city. That way the fire department only has to have one key. The other option would be a knoxbox with the fire alarm system keys in the box along with the building keys. This is another single specified rule as all of the knoxboxes used in our town have a common key.

You should allow any one to buy from any company. It is just required to be compatible with your receiver. I could progam any one way radio to be compatible with any receiver. Consumers should have the right to buy the AES radio from whomever they choose.

We don't own any of the equipment including the receiver. If we would permit anyone to install and of provide a radio, we would have to own and maintain the receiving end equipment..something we don't want to do. There are multiple choices in getting your alarm signal to our dispatch center, but they all involve private third parties.
We don't permit auto dialers to call our emergency numbers and while we have no real method of enforcement, if your dialer screws up and ties up an emergency line, there is a hefty fine.

 

[nhfire77]

Oh ok, that's great then. I thought the radio box was required. That is a great system, fair to all. Auto dialers are stupid, I think, most places around here expressly prohibit them as well. Most cities around here require the direct connect for any system sprinklers, high life safety hazards, or in some cases any fire alarm, period.

Regarding the key, most cities require CAT 30 for all new installations, period. I would never protest, it's a really good idea for the FD. Having to carry a key ring as big as I do for fire alarm work is rediclious anyway.