fire pump controller

[nhfire77]

When a fire pump controller is fed from the line side of a main, is there a safe way to open the controller cabinet? besides having the POCO disconnect the service.

I say no, just want to make sure. I am not going to do an arc flash calc, it seems like a waste of time. I didn't bother looking at the xfmr KVA rating. Its a 480/277V 2000A service from a pad mount xfmr.

 

[Volta]

When a fire pump controller is fed from the line side of a main, is there a safe way to open the controller cabinet? besides having the POCO disconnect the service.

I say no, just want to make sure. I am not going to do an arc flash calc, it seems like a waste of time. I didn't bother looking at the xfmr KVA rating. Its a 480/277V 2000A service from a pad mount xfmr.

Why would it be a waste? A calc. is the only way you will know how much incident energy there is available in this equipment. Define safe.

 

[nhfire77]

Why would it be a waste? A calc. is the only way you will know how much incident energy there is available in this equipment. Define safe.

I dont have enough info readily available and I just dont feel its safe, so to be honest, I am looking for a reason not to open it live.

Safe=comfort level

me comfortable=Not being asked to work on something someone else should be

also

liability of a sprinkler system = not comfortable

Call me lazy, I was looking for an excuse.

 

[augie47]

Is there some particular problem that you feel you will encounter.
Most of the ones I have encountered opened easily and presented no real danger just for observation. Proper PPE, of course, should be worn but an inspection should pose no real danger.

 

[nhfire77]

Is there some particular problem that you feel you will encounter.
Most of the ones I have encountered opened easily and presented no real danger just for observation. Proper PPE, of course, should be worn but an inspection should pose no real danger.

Control wiring to an remote annuciator and the fire alarm interface is wired wrong. When an off normal conidtion or pump run condition is generated no alarms sound. I have not seen the inside of the cabinet yet, nor is a manual avaiable, yet. I will have to troubleshoot it. I anticipate that with insulated gloves it will be a huge pain

 

[augie47]

If you are uncomfortable with the situation a POCO disconnect might be in order, but normally FPCs are no different from working on any service panel with a main.
If you are working on the control circuit once the main is off the danger is minimized.
I can visulize you wanting the main back on for testing perhaps more than once and that might be a bit overwhelming for POCO.
What voltage are we talking about ?

 

[nhfire77]

Good point augie. I'm not comfortable with FPC's. I am trying to get a controller technician to do this. There has been some whining about the costs, but IMHO, it's not safe to work in such a situation. Oh I forgot, the pump has a built in transfer switch from a back up generator, but they won't let the generator be turned off. The business doesn't want to shut it down, they say they can't afford to be without power in any case, during daytime operations. I don't like that either. I don't like to work live like this. I'm just a little grumpy about the whole situation.

 

[augie47]

There are folks here more familiar with 70E than I am, but there are FEW situations where "live" work is actually permitted. As that law becomes more commonly enforced the plant may find they can do without power rather than face the liability of violating 70E.
You don't want to loose the customer but, truth be known, this is probably not a sitaution which allows "hot" work.

 

[Volta]

...I just dont feel its safe...

That is usually enough for me. In fact, my working policy for my employees says that if it seems unsafe, it probably is. That is the time to reassess the situation, and find a different approach.

... me comfortable=Not being asked to work on something someone else should be ...

Yeah, it would often be the fire protection crew's territory. Though as Augie said, most are ok, at least if newer. A hinged cover is usually safer to open than one that is bolted.

 

[nhfire77]

The customer is not interested in violating any rule/law. But, would like to get this done hot if possible. Thankfully in this situation, I won't (shouldn't) lose the customer. If I could find an easy out, it would ease my mind. I'm more conservatative as get older.

Volta, it's fairly new. I think it should be done by the fire protection people, if they want to do it live, they can be my guest. I don't mind lose a few hours labor.

 

[Volta]

There are folks here more familiar with 70E than I am, but there are FEW situations where "live" work is actually permitted. As that law becomes more commonly enforced the plant may find they can do without power rather than face the liability of violating 70E.
You don't want to loose the customer but, truth be known, this is probably not a sitaution which allows "hot" work.

You are probably right, but depending on the scope of work vs. type of occupancy, one (the employer) may be able to demonstrate that deenergizing (shutting down the fire protection water) introduces additional or increased hazards.

 

[Volta]

What needs to be done in there?

 

[nhfire77]

What needs to be done in there?

the annuciator is just lights and a sounder. There is no change of state (switching to ground) so the bulbs don't light up, and no sound for anything. On the fire alarm side, I think the relays were all wired Normally open, buT the EOLR is at the input module not in the controller. I have been thinking about how I would handle a resistor with gloves.

 

[Volta]

the annuciator is just lights and a sounder. There is no change of state (switching to ground) so the bulbs don't light up, and no sound for anything. On the fire alarm side, I think the relays were all wired Normally open, buT the EOLR is at the input module not in the controller. I have been thinking about how I would handle a resistor with gloves.

I don't know, but you may find an internal cover over at least the line side of the power, if not the load too.

Will NFPA 72 allow the resistor leads to be wired to small conductors first (no gloves), and then brought in to the circuit with those somewhat larger wires?

 

[nhfire77]

I don't know, but you may find an internal cover over at least the line side of the power, if not the load too.

Will NFPA 72 allow the resistor leads to be wired to small conductors first (no gloves), and then brought in to the circuit with those somewhat larger wires?

I was hoping to find internal guarding, but no one had a key, so I couldn't take a peek. From what the sprinkler tech tells me there is none. It's the lack of knowing and the lack of anyone taking responsibility that is also bothering me.

Yes that would be the plan with the resistor, it has to be the end of the circuit. I would wire nut it to a short piece of #18 or #16, and tape it up. As long as I can land 2 conductors in the terminal.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

I was hoping to find internal guarding, but no one had a key, so I couldn't take a peek. From what the sprinkler tech tells me there is none. It's the lack of knowing and the lack of anyone taking responsibility that is also bothering me.

Yes that would be the plan with the resistor, it has to be the end of the circuit. I would wire nut it to a short piece of #18 or #16, and tape it up. As long as I can land 2 conductors in the terminal.

Most that I have seen have no protection...
By the rules, if your main fire pump is down, fire watch, at the minimum, or evac., depending on the AHJ. I'd do a POCO disconnect, let the chips fall where they may. Augie47 is on the money, IMHO.

 

[nhfire77]

The building is unoccupied at night, it can Be done with out any major interruption.