Fire pump fed from a feeder? NEC 695.3(C)

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Noooorm

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I have a client that is at a refinery that wants to feed their electric fire pump from one of their substations. From what I can tell in NEC 695.3(C), I need to make sure:
1. The sources in 695.3(A) are not practicable [according to the AHJ and/or the insurance carrier I assume].
2. A refinery is considered as a multi-building campus-style complex (it seems to be as described in the Handbook, "This distribution arrangement is common in industrial and institutional campus settings"). Again, according to the AHJ/insurance carrier, I assume.
3. There will be a dedicated backup generator as an alternate source and the OCPD's will be selectively coordinated per (C)(2) and (C)(3).

Does this sound doable? All other questions regarding fire pumps that I can find discuss getting power from the utility.

Thanks,
Norm
 
Noooorm said:
I have a client that is at a refinery that wants to feed their electric fire pump from one of their substations. From what I can tell in NEC 695.3(C), I need to make sure:
1. The sources in 695.3(A) are not practicable [according to the AHJ and/or the insurance carrier I assume].
2. A refinery is considered as a multi-building campus-style complex (it seems to be as described in the Handbook, "This distribution arrangement is common in industrial and institutional campus settings"). Again, according to the AHJ/insurance carrier, I assume.
3. There will be a dedicated backup generator as an alternate source and the OCPD's will be selectively coordinated per (C)(2) and (C)(3).

Does this sound doable? All other questions regarding fire pumps that I can find discuss getting power from the utility.

Thanks,
Norm
Click to expand...

Is the refinery producing its own power with an on-site power house? Or is this the POCO's substation? Either is acceptable under 695.3(A)(2) or 695.3(A)(1), respectively. The key is "where reliable", and that's an AHJ call.
 
No, this is not a POCO sub, nor is this from on-site power, nor is their power reliable. (They have not had power outages, but the POCO wiring is overhead, which throws them out of the 'reliable' arena, per commentary in the NEC Handbook.) This is a substation owned by the refinery, from within the refinery. They do not wish to get power from the utility [per 695.3(A)]. They wish to get power from a substation from within their distribution system per 695.3(C).

Does this sound doable?

Norm
 
Noooorm said:
This is a substation owned by the refinery, from within the refinery.
Click to expand...

Helpful, thanks.

Noooorm said:
2. A refinery is considered as a multi-building campus-style complex (it seems to be as described in the Handbook, "This distribution arrangement is common in industrial and institutional campus settings"). Again, according to the AHJ/insurance carrier, I assume.
Click to expand...

Would you help us more with the multi building qualification? Is the primary service arrangement such that it has capacity to serve new structures on-site? Is it currently serving more than (1) structure? Are there downstream feeders serving remote structures on the property? Are the on-site generators a combined plant or dedicated generators, per structure? Is it under single management?

Related to the generators, will you be able to comply with Art 700 for the fire pump feeder?
 
Noooorm said:
No, this is not a POCO sub, nor is this from on-site power, nor is their power reliable. (They have not had power outages, but the POCO wiring is overhead, which throws them out of the 'reliable' arena, per commentary in the NEC Handbook.) This is a substation owned by the refinery, from within the refinery. They do not wish to get power from the utility [per 695.3(A)]. They wish to get power from a substation from within their distribution system per 695.3(C).

Does this sound doable?

Norm
Click to expand...

OK, I'm confused. If they don't get power from the POCO and they don't make their own power, what are they using; fairy dust? :?:?
 
publicgood said:
The customer receives primary service - they own the transformer.
Click to expand...

Ahhhh, now I see.

I don't have the Handbook. How does overhead wiring, off premises, constitute "not reliable"? If you look at Rick's reference, "reliable" means less than 4 hours of downtime per year.
 
gadfly56 said:
OK, I'm confused. If they don't get power from the POCO and they don't make their own power, what are they using; fairy dust? :?:?
Click to expand...

I assumed that the question was in regards to where I wanted to get power from for the fire pumps. The location I want to tie into to get power for the fire pumps is neither at the utility nor is it self-generated. It's within their premise wiring.

It doesn't matter if the power is reliable or not, since they want to use a new generator, dedicated to the new fire pump house, as backup.
 
gadfly56 said:
Ahhhh, now I see.

I don't have the Handbook. How does overhead wiring, off premises, constitute "not reliable"? If you look at Rick's reference, "reliable" means less than 4 hours of downtime per year.
Click to expand...

From NFPA 20 A.9.3.2(3), A reliable source possesses the following characteristics: 1)..., 2)..., 3) "The normal source of power is not supplied by overhead conductors outside the protected facility. ..."
 
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