fire rated wall

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That depends. Can you describe the "work box" ? It will be considered a "membrane penetration" of the assembly and not a "thru penetration".
 
The box will have to be fastened to the studs, the membrane can not be the support, this can be found in the UL Orange books.

Roger
 
The issue that Roger is citing is the box attached to the drywall may fall out not the penetration. That's why it's required to be supported independent of the drywall.
 
mwm1752 said:
Roger are you referring to metal cut ins only -- Carlon plastic cut in boxes are rated to be used per IBC 2015 714.3.2 exc. 2
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Either, they can both be used but unless the installation instructions specifically say they do not need to be fastened to the studs in a rated assembly they would have to be installed per the Fire Resistance Directory in order to maintain the assemblies rating.

Roger
 
Sierrasparky said:
How do you putty pad a cut in box? :p
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They make putty pads that go inside the box, but this doesn't solve the problem Roger addresses, and I would have to see literature on a plastic box that clearly states it can be installed per a UL listing for a one hour wall assembly to believe it.
 
Strathead said:
They make putty pads that go inside the box, but this doesn't solve the problem Roger addresses, and I would have to see literature on a plastic box that clearly states it can be installed per a UL listing for a one hour wall assembly to believe it.
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Look in the back of a Carlon cut in box. It is stamped with the UL 2hr rating. Go figure.

I don't know any putty pad rated for the inside of a box.
 
Strathead said:
That stamp doesn't alleviate the requirement of the UL assembly that requires a box to be secured. Ii agree it would confuse people, but there it is.
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It does alleviate the requirement to be fastened to the framing if the UL listing is designed not to and the box is installed as per- manufacture.

Look at those Tenmat covers , they make a version that can protect the opening for a cut in speaker not secured to the framing. It is listed as such.

I am sure Tenmat will come out in the future with on rated for those new integrated LED cut in.

It's just a matter of time.
 
Sierrasparky said:
It does alleviate the requirement to be fastened to the framing if the UL listing is designed not to and the box is installed as per- manufacture.

Look at those Tenmat covers , they make a version that can protect the opening for a cut in speaker not secured to the framing. It is listed as such.

I am sure Tenmat will come out in the future with on rated for those new integrated LED cut in.

It's just a matter of time.
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I disagree, I was looking for the UL assembly, but I can't find it. All metal boxes carry a 2 hour rating, plastic boxes only carry the rating if they are stamped. That is why the boxes have a stamp. If someone can find the UL assembly I am pretty sure you will see wording that states something like boxes secure the framing.
 
Strathead said:
I disagree, I was looking for the UL assembly, but I can't find it. All metal boxes carry a 2 hour rating, plastic boxes only carry the rating if they are stamped. That is why the boxes have a stamp. If someone can find the UL assembly I am pretty sure you will see wording that states something like boxes secure the framing.
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so you disagree with the IBC & UL that allows cut in electrical boxes used as per maunfactures instructions https://www.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Ul_outletboxes.pdf --
did you look up the IBC reference submitted? http://www.carlonsales.com/techinfo/brochures/electrical/Zip Boxes_2B1.pdf
 
mwm1752 said:
so you disagree with the IBC & UL that allows cut in electrical boxes used as per maunfactures instructions https://www.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Ul_outletboxes.pdf --
did you look up the IBC reference submitted? http://www.carlonsales.com/techinfo/brochures/electrical/Zip Boxes_2B1.pdf
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I looked at both of those prior to this. The first one states this "The Code also states, in aninformational note, that qualified testing laboratories’directories contain listing installation restrictions necessaryto maintain the fire-resistive rating of the assemblies wherepenetrations or openings are made" I would bet you a dollar this is a specific reference to securing to the studs. I will look one more time for the UL assembly that requires it, but if I can't find it and you don't, I am done arguing about it. I will continue my way until it is proven wrong. I am trying not to sound aggressive, more of an agree to disagree, so consider that the tone of my voice.
 
The gypsum council or some org requires a metal box to be affixed to the structure.
 
Strathead said:
I looked at both of those prior to this. The first one states this "The Code also states, in aninformational note, that qualified testing laboratories’directories contain listing installation restrictions necessaryto maintain the fire-resistive rating of the assemblies wherepenetrations or openings are made" I would bet you a dollar this is a specific reference to securing to the studs. I will look one more time for the UL assembly that requires it, but if I can't find it and you don't, I am done arguing about it. I will continue my way until it is proven wrong. I am trying not to sound aggressive, more of an agree to disagree, so consider that the tone of my voice.
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I'll take that bet a cut in box properly fire rated & mounted per installation instructions is compliant to a fire rated assembly -- IMHO the intent is to protect the penetration in the wall where ever it may be , as long as the assembly is in tact -- I hate to think because we are in the mist of a discussion it turned into an argument -- yes the tone sounds aggressive but that's ok I will not be offended or need a safe space. Merry Chistmas
 
Just looked at the Carlon PDF, The cut in boxes are not listed for fire penetration , However the have the stamp in the back of the box.

Oops
 
mwm1752 said:
I'll take that bet a cut in box properly fire rated & mounted per installation instructions is compliant to a fire rated assembly -- IMHO the intent is to protect the penetration in the wall where ever it may be , as long as the assembly is in tact -- I hate to think because we are in the mist of a discussion it turned into an argument -- yes the tone sounds aggressive but that's ok I will not be offended or need a safe space. Merry Chistmas
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For the record, I knew the tone sounded aggressive that is why I stated that is wasn't. We are just getting nowhere unless one of us can find the UL listing of a wall assembly with box penetrations, I am suspecting it is something UL wants us to pay for.
 
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