Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

[jes25]

I do a lot of work in homes built in the 20's. People and especially landlords I deal with want to do the least expensive thing all the time. Often the wiring appears to be very unsafe due to crumbling insulation, 80 years of DIY etc. I suggest usually the whole home be rewired. I am thinking of suggesting, as an alternative, that the whole home be put on AFCI. From a fire safety standpoint do you guys feel this is a good alternative.

I am not saying I am going to ignore code violations or anything but lots of times I can just tell there are lurking hazards hidden in the wall. Opening walls or rewiring is usually not an option due to cost. Personally I would not want to sleep in a house that has K&T without AFCI and good working linked smokes

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

I think you will probably have a problem with whole house AFCI protection on the existing wiring. I doubt you will be completely free from neutral and ground connections at outlets and other locations throughout the house.

The thing about K & T wiring is that at the time it was installed, it was probably done properly and most likely from a highly skilled electrician. You are right about the later additions. In many cases, AC, MC, and NM cable would be spliced right into the K & T, or would be tapped off an outlet somewhere. It can be a real mess!

In my opinion, if the house has made it through 80 years of use, it may just have another 80 in it. The wiring may not be as bad as it appears. I would certain suggest GFCI where required and needed, at least supply battery powered smokes in needed locations, and check for over fusing and/or miswiring in the panelboard and at outlets. Obviously, any new wiring should be performed to current codes unless a variance is permitted.

I was asked to make some repairs and alterations to a historical home in my area and for the historical aspect, K & T wiring and other open switches and components were permitted and current codes were not required.

 

[jes25]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

It can be a real mess is right on the money. A lot of times I go through put in 2 wire plugs were some clown pit in 3 wire ones and put in GFCI where needed. I like to put at leat 1 20a circuit in the kitchen in addtion to the one that is there. I always put in the right size fuses and note on the panel not to change them. I'll fix the obvious violations in the basement and so on but I just dont have a good feeling about the job when I am done, after encountering such a mess. The landlord I work for loves to ask me if it safe and I cant say yes. Better, maybe but not safe in my opinion.

 

[jes25]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

Any other comments? So the only problem with AFCI the whole house is nuisance tripping?

Thanks

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

Well, not just nuisance tripping. The circuits may not go on at all!

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

There was nothing wrong witk K and T unless some one insulates it and if left undisturbed no reason it will fail or cause fires assuming fused properly

 

[jes25]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

Most old houses I run into have been insulated or the wiring disturbed. Usually both.

A lot of these homes are in Pontiac MI an old city where property values are very low and the homes are in poor shape.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

This is easy if insulted you must rewire or remove insulation.If an inspector sees insulation he should red tag job and if nice maybe give you a couple weeks to rewire or pull the meter.He has no choice unless he wants to end up with crimal charges if it burns

 

[tonyi]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

If someone was a little casual about which neutral they grabbed in a box somewhere, you can get hardwired AFCI (or GFCI) trip conditions.

If a gnd is present, look out for some fixtures that have their housings strapped to neutral - installed in a grounded metal box, that'll be a hardwired trip for AF or GF as some neutral current will normally be leaking back on gnd.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

Originally posted by jes25:
Any other comments? So the only problem with AFCI the whole house is nuisance tripping?

Thanks

I don't think I'd call it nuisance tripping. That would just be the AFCI's performing their intended function.

 

[jes25]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

I think if there was anything causing to trip like neutrals being swapped up it should be coorected anyhow. You guys agree, it would be safer?

 

[apauling]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

i have yet to meet an electrician that figures out exactly what is on each neutral in old K&T. Once the original integrity has been altered, it is best to keep removing loads as walls are opened up. The problem is that as a succession of panels get installed to repower dwellings, the old neutrals get overloaded as seemingly unnecessary wires are removed, these seemingly unnecessary redundant neutrals were needed.

I doubt if you could isolate the neutrals from other circuits. run new circuits to bedrooms. it may not be possible to afci an old house. see if it works.

paul

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

I agree that the older houses are often a real mess, especially after lots of DIYers have mucked things up over the years. What really irritates me is how all the DIY work was done without permits or inspections.

I'm currently doing a complete re-wire job on a 1922 bungalow (with a detached garage), and the circuits and wiring are a complete mess. The K&T in the attic is crumbling, almost nothing is grounded, and the circuits themselves are split all over the house without any logical pattern as to how things are grouped. It looks like every time something was added, they just connected it to the nearest wire without thinking about circuit loads and balancing.

Fortunately, the homeowner is willing to spend the dollars to make the place right, but this is the exception rather than the rule. So far, the cost for materials alone has run into the thousands, not to mention the labor. Most people just want their stuff to work, and they don't want to spend what it takes to do it right.

-Jeff

 

[jes25]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

I would say it is rare for people want it done right. If the light goes on everthing is fine to them. The siding or kit countertops have probaly been replaced several times but the electrical has only been made worse generally by DIYers "upgrades". Oh well, In the spirit of the original post I was just hoping to find a more cost effective alternative to suggest. Maybe if a few more thousand houses burn down a year they will start to care. But I doubt it.

 

[mjf]

Re: Fire safety, Old houses and Cheapskates

I'm feeling so fortunate. Most the folks I work for want their electric done properly and up to present codes. In the process of doing this I do find all kinds of scary wiring. Before I start a job I generally let homeowner know that once I open a junction box, recepticle, switchbox, etc. I own it and if there's damaged or improper wiring that it has to be fixed. I've never had a problem with a customer when it comes to the safety of thier lives, homes, or investments. So I'm feeling fortunate after reading the prior posts!