fixture grounding/wiring

[kurt b]

My wife purchased some pendant bathroom fixtures. They came with GU-9 120v lamps. The cable looks like coaxial cable but the center conductor is stranded and overall cable diameter is smaller. No ground wire in this cable down to fixture housings. There are metal screw pins which hold glass shade to metal fixture body. These metal pins protrude out past glass shades.
When I asked about the connection of the cable and lack of ground wire his response was that they have been doing this for years and it is fine. When I asked, "what if fixture body somehow became energized for some reason or another, what would happen?" He said, because canopy was grounded it would detect short and everything would be fine. How can the canopy detect a problem if there is no ground on housing back to canopy? Aren't fixtures to have a minimum wire size of #18 and include a ground wire?
Thanks, Kurt

 

[bphgravity]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

No, not all appliances and equipment requires equipment grounding. Take a tour of your home. How many things do you have plugged in that do not have the third prong?

 

[charlie]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

You might also look for a listing mark. This could be a piece of polished junk. If it is listed, it is double insulated and comes with instructions.

 

[kurt b]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

Bryan, this fixture is not cord and plug, it is hard wired. I also didn't know lights were considered appliances, just things like toasters and blenders etc.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

kurt, look at all your table lamps. They only have two wire cords, but then again they are cord-and-plug.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

article 410.18 A Exposed metal parts shall be grounded or insulated from ground and other conducting surfaces or be inaccessible to unqualified personnel.

 

[kurt b]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

Bryan, Appliance 1 : an act of applying
2 a : a piece of equipment for adapting a tool or machine to a special purpose : ATTACHMENT b : an instrument or device designed for a particular use; specifically : a household or office device (as a stove, fan, or refrigerator) operated by gas or electric current
I spoke to an Electrical Engineer this morning, he informed me that all fixtures hard wired, were to have minimum #18 conductors and a ground.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

Originally posted by kurt b:
Bryan, Appliance 1 : an act of applying
2 a : a piece of equipment for adapting a tool or machine to a special purpose : ATTACHMENT b : an instrument or device designed for a particular use; specifically : a household or office device (as a stove, fan, or refrigerator) operated by gas or electric current
I spoke to an Electrical Engineer this morning, he informed me that all fixtures hard wired, were to have minimum #18 conductors and a ground.

The term "appliance" is defined in Article 100. Because of this, your definition does not apply.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

What does any of this have to do with the term appliance? I was just making a statement that not all things electrical come with EGC's.

 

[charlie b]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

Originally posted by kurt b:I spoke to an Electrical Engineer this morning, he informed me that . . . .

Speaking as an Electrical Engineer, you shouldn't believe anything that an Electrical Engineer tells you. Oh wait. Did I just tell you something? Oh never mind.

 

[kurt b]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

Hey guys, is a neutral a current carrying conductor? Yes it is, so should it be insulated?, I think so. So if I was told to twist the braided shield and connect to the romex neutral, would that be ok? The braid is not surrounded by any insulating conductor after outer sheath is removed to expose braid. So if I twist this braid, and connect to neutral, it is now a current carrying conductor which is not insulated. Charlie, are you a double "E"? You guys are too much! I "NEED" a truthful answer to this, it is going to cost me some cash to return if I am not correct about this grounding issue. (restocking and shipping charges) Although I was told that one of these fixtures was low voltage and the other was not. (identical pendants, cords lamps etc. on both fixtures) Kinda strange.

 

[kurt b]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

Originally posted by ryan_618:

Originally posted by kurt b:
Bryan, Appliance 1 : an act of applying
2 a : a piece of equipment for adapting a tool or machine to a special purpose : ATTACHMENT b : an instrument or device designed for a particular use; specifically : a household or office device (as a stove, fan, or refrigerator) operated by gas or electric current
I spoke to an Electrical Engineer this morning, he informed me that all fixtures hard wired, were to have minimum #18 conductors and a ground.

The term "appliance" is defined in Article 100. Because of this, your definition does not apply.

 

[kurt b]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

So Ryan, are you saying that a hard wired fixture is an appliance? If so, does this "appliance" need a ground? Tell me, how many fixtures you have inspected say on the outside of a house, like a coach light that comes without a ground wire, a universal mounting bracket with ground screw attached to bracket? I have installed many fixtures, actually tonight for a friend, I installed two sconces, and you know what, they had ground wires, and brackets with ground screw already set into factory threaded holes.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

250.4(A)(3) Bonding of Electrical Equipment Non?current-carrying conductive materials enclosing electrical conductors or equipment, or forming part of such equipment, shall be connected together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an effective ground-fault current path.

Don

 

[George Stolz]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

Kurt B, welcome to the forum.

Originally posted by kurt b:
So Ryan, are you saying that a hard wired fixture is an appliance?

Well, Ryan's being clever. Look at the definition:

Appliance. Utilization equipment, generally other than industrial, that is normally built in standardized sizes or types and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or more functions such as clothes washing, air conditioning, food mixing, deep frying, and so forth.

The "and so forth" blows this definition to infinity. Just about everything can be forced into this definition.

However, it doesn't change anything in regards to your predicament. Call it swiss cheese, it still needs to be bonded, or be well insulated.

One method that you could use to bond the fixtures, if they don't give you one, would be to use some grounding clips that come with new light boxes. Ground the clip, and then mount the fixture with 8/32's, through the clip.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

Kurt, don't panic. The pendants with the braided "coax" wires are all low-voltage, most likely 12 volts.

 

[Don Backe]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

The questions and responces for the lite fixture in question with no ground wire has raised many interesting points. What about safety, if the screw retaining the canopy touches the screw shell and becomes energized, and you happen to touch this while standing on a damp floor barefooted,what will happen?

 

[kurt b]

Re: fixture grounding/wiring

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Kurt, don't panic. The pendants with the braided "coax" wires are all low-voltage, most likely 12 volts.

Hey Larry, got your post. Unfortunately, these are non low voltage. The lamps amd lamp holder are 120v units.
A fixture is anything permanently attached to a building and considered part of it. This is a legal definition that everyone from accountants to attorneys must observe for a variety of reasons. The NEC recognizes this by providing special requirements for fixtures. One such requirement is that no fixture wire can be smaller than 18 AWG. Another requirement is fixture wires must be of a type listed in Table 402.3. This table makes up the bulk of Article 402.
kurt