Fixtures mounted on brick piers

[flightline]

I would like your opinion on a matter that has recently come up. The situation is a custom home in our town, but this situation could be found most anywhere. In this instance, there are a number of brick columns that hold up a rear deck and extend upward a few more feet. These columns are topped with a smooth limestone cap. In these columns, the electrical contractor has stubbed up at least one, if not two ?? EMT?s with 2 conductors each in them, [no equipment grounding conductor; he?s using the EMT itself as the equipment grounding means as permitted by 250].

Herein lies the problem. The contractor did not install a box at each fixture location. As I interpret 300.15, this is a violation. You should know that these are coach style fixtures with bottom mounting canopy that would appear to be set up for mounting to a box. My discussion centered around 300.15 for these style fixtures, plus questioned how equipment grounding would be accomplished and maintained. Another concern is current leakage should the fixture canopies become watterlogged from the rain or snow, and the installation having no positive equipment ground. The contractor's response is " that's the way we always do it". Another aside, the general contractor did not have the brick pillars complete when we did rough inspection. Our next opportunity to see this project is at final. To pass final, all fixtures must be in place, with all lamps in place, working, and caulked to the exterior finish to maintain weathertight seal. There is no opportunity to inspect these without dismantling the work already done. Yet, the electrical contractor admitted that there was no box; he simply just wire nutted the connections below the canopy, and fastened the fixtures to the limestone cap with some sort of concrete anchor.

The permissive voice of the NEC in 410.16(A) says:

410.16 Means of Support.
(A) Outlet Boxes. Outlet boxes or fittings installed as required by 314.23 shall be permitted to support luminaries (fixtures).

The NEC Handbook goes on further to say:

Regardless of whether a luminaire is attached to an outlet box or is supported independently of the outlet box, care should be taken to securely fasten the outlet box or support the independent rod or hanger in order to ensure that the luminaire is securely mounted in place. The luminaire may be securely mounted to the box; however, if the box is not secured, it becomes the weak link in the luminaire support.


314.27 Outlet Boxes.
(A) Boxes at Luminaire (Lighting Fixture) Outlets.
Boxes used at luminaire (lighting fixture) or lampholder outlets shall be designed for the purpose. At every outlet used exclusively for lighting, the box shall be designed or installed so that a luminaire (lighting fixture) may be
attached.

It is the contractor?s contention that since the code section is permissive and says shall be ?permitted? that it is not mandatory. It is my position that 300.15 supercedes the 410.16 verbiage.

300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings?Where Required.
A box shall be installed at each outlet and switch point for concealed knob-and-tube wiring.
Fittings and connectors shall be used only with the specific wiring methods for which they are designed and listed. Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC cable, Type MC cable, Type MI cable, nonmetallic-sheathed
cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body complying with Article 314 shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, termination point, or pull point, unless otherwise permitted in 300.15(A)
through (M).


Thanks for your answers.

 

[eprice]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

What I'm getting from your post is that you're not so much concerned with the adequacy of the support for the fixtures, but rather with the lack of a box for making conductor splices, for grounding continuity, and for weather protection of the splices. I would share your concerns. the permissive language in 410.16 IMO deals with the support requirement and nothing else. That section allows the box to provide the fixture support (when the box is installed according to 314.23 and further regulated by 314.27). It doesn't say that if you choose not to use the box for fixture support, you don't need the box for other code reasons. It doesn't permit the contractor to ignore 300.15. It doesn't permit him to ignore part VI of Article 250. It doesn't permit him to ignore 410.4(A).

[ November 20, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: eprice ]

 

[Guest]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

The biggest mechanical problem I see is with the lack of ground continuity. That could be fixed with a grounding lug type bushing a jumper to the grounding pigtail from the fixture.

There's box fill issues too, because there's no box.

What does the AHJ say about this? How about a call to them to discuss? Even if you do it anonymously or off-the-record you can find out their policy on these masonry mounted fixtures.

I'm used to "coach style" fixtures being wall-mounted-- but I'm understanding these have bottom mounts and are mounted on the top of the columns (on top of the limestone caps).

The GC should have called for a "rough" for these fixtures. I am assuming the GC pulled the electrical permit.

One solution would be to call for a rough inspection on them now-- to separate them from the finish-- and to separate them from your work-- since there can only be one open electrical permit on the job.

 

[big john]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

I'd also be concerned about moisture as there's no good way to provide a tight seal between the brick and the fixture. It could be caulked, but that might make future repairs tricky. Not only that, but would these brick faces be subjected to rain water? If the fixtures aren't sealed, I could see water running down the face of the columns and getting into the splices behind the fixtures.

The whole setup sounds ratty, no effective equipment ground and the like. How much does thirty feet of #12 green cost?

:roll:

-John

 

[steve66]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

Do the fixtures have a compartment with a cover for making the splice between the branch circuit conductors and the fixture wires? If not, I would insist on a box. I can't quote a code reference, but I am under the impression that splices have to be accessible.

Steve

 

[Guest]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

I'm picturing a brick pillar (pier) something like this:

But with a fixture more like this:

And a flagstone cap more like this:

Are we on the right track?

[ November 20, 2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[roger]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

Awwt, flightline is the inspector, and is only asking for opinions.

Roger

 

[flightline]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

Thanks to all that have responded thus far. Roger id quite correct, I am the AHJ. However, I have not been active while I fight cancer. Things look OK there, but I cannot help but informally speak to the contractors as I drive through town, and see something out of sorts. This particular job is but a block or two from my own home. The other inspector and an interim inspector have filled in to pick up my slack most graciously. However, I hesitate to say that in all of these such installations, they have not seemed to catch these items. I sincerely do NOT want to bash them. We have only been there a couple of years as specific electrical inspectors. I have had a great deal of time to invest in myself and to what I know recently. Visiting this, and the other similar forums has assisted in this but also goes to prove the addage that I don't know everything. In fact, I am humbled by the depth of the forums participants.

As an inspector, I must attempt to enforce the codes evenly, and to the best of my ability to interpret them as they were intended. I don't want to say that I don't meet enough electrical contractors with the accumen shown by most of the "giants" of this forum. On the one hand, that's sad. But on the other, I don't get challenged too often as I cite the code sections in my defect reports. As has been shown to me on this forum, we all have a slightly different perspective on things, but all want a safe end product that meets or exceeds code. I guess making a profit is important too, but it's nice when one goes hand in hand with the other. Since it was un-official, I see no harm in questioning my point of view, and seeking yours. They are generally views I respect; and if I'm wrong, better I know now.

Again, thanks to all, and I welcome responses from other posters if you wish.

By the way, awwt, you are exactly correct in what you show!

 

[scott moran]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

Flightline,

The use of the box can be a mixed issue. If you install a box, and then dont maintain an decent seal then you are sure to fill the box and conduit with water, snow, and even ice and create more of a headace for maint. Irregardless of the style of box used (8b, 1900, bell box) you could have this problem.


I am assuming these may be post lights with the pier mount adaptor. With this style there is plenty of room for the conduit to be stubbed up and the splice in the base. I do this for the above mentioned reason.

I would however agree that grouding is an issue. At the least a ground wire should be pulled to all locations, bonded at each point, and bonded back an acceptable location in the home. I would also have grounding bushings on each conduit and have that ground bonded there and to each fixture.

The only other thing that you could do is have it protected by a GFCI.

Scott

 

[Guest]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

Originally posted by roger:
Awwt, flightline is the inspector, and is only asking for opinions.

Roger

Please strike my answer and reverse it

Thanks Roger! Now, it all makes sense. Doh! Sorry.

Having a face up box in the top of the column would be water trap-- but there may be ways around that. Leaving a lip above the top of the limestone cap might help; allowing for drainaige of the box might help; putting some kind of cover or potting in the box might work-- but that all sounds cobby.

Question for Flightline: What if the EC had run a nice PVC into the top of the column? Then run UF w/ground up through the sleeve & make a direct connection to the coach light? Or, how about setting a round Bell box on top of the column-- but that would be cobby too.

It all sounds electrically cobby when you get right down to it.

I guess my final question is: Flightline-- what would have made you happy? What's the "right" way to do these brick or stone column lights?

OK, now I'm thinking the best way might be to use a listed fixture and pipe combination to mount and wire the light, then do the brick veneer and limestone cap around it. A pole/light combo like this, and then veneer around it:

What say you, kind Sir?

../Wayne C.
awwt

[ November 20, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[flightline]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

That's why I like this forum. On the one hand you have the code, and othe other, practicallity. As far as what I'd like to see....well, given the argument or better yet the opinions stated herein, I don't know. As you might know, we're in a pipe and wire area. So that might narrow down the options available. But I guess I'd like to know what others like Russ are doing or at least seeing. First and foremost, it must be grounded and safe, and right in there, mechanically sound as well. If that's an answer so be it.

 

[electricman2]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

Are there instructions with the fixtures. If so, they would have to be followed (110.3(B). I have installed fixtures on brick columns that did not require a box there being adequate room to make the splices. IMO the biggest problem is the lack of a EGC.

 

[pierre]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

Flightline
I hope all is going as well as can be expected for your health! I like your response about the fairness of enforcing the NEC. But in fairness, you also need to think of the consumer who is expecting you to make sure the installation is the minimum to code,what they are paying for and is safe.

314.15 Damp, Wet, of Hazardous (Classified) Locations.
Boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings installed in wet locations shall be listed for use in wet locations.

That is only the last sentence, the whole section should be read.

314.23(G) Enclosures in concrete or Masonry.

314.27(A) Boxes at Luminaire (lighting Fixture)Outlets.

300.10 Electrical Continuity of Metal Raceways and Enclosures.

300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings - Where Required.
300.18(A) Raceway Installation - Complete Runs.

310.8(C) Wet Locations.

310.13 Conductor Applications.

410.4(A) Wet and Damp Locations.

410.16(B) Inspection.

410.17 General.
410.21 Methods of Grounding.

410.24 Conductor Insulation.

I hope this provides you with a few code references for citing

I would request from the contractor that he provides written proof that the EMT is not going to corrode over time installed in this manner, especially since the equipment grounding path is the raceway itself. SAFETY FIRST!!!
There is no exception to permitting water into this enclosure, so there is no excuse not to install a box that is SUITABLE for the location.

In court one should always be careful what one says. For instance - I always do it this way

Good luck and I wish you well!

Pierre

 

[bill addiss]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

Pierre,

I was waiting for someone to mention the EMT in the concrete. That would concern me too in this situation.

Bill

 

[Guest]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

I mentioned eliminating the EMT in a roundabout way. I suggested using PVC & UF w/ground. Flightline replied that they are a "pipe" jurisdiction.

 

[russ]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

I've run into this same situation. I require HW while the conduits in contact with the earth. If they want they can change to TW in the brick columns, I allow it. I do require a ground when there's no box, it has to be attached to the fixture ground wire and the conduits must be bonded

Russ

[ November 22, 2003, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: russ ]

 

[tonyi]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

There's no prohibition against EMT in concrete. There are caveats regarding corrosion protection when you do it though...

(and I'd bet those probably didn't happen in this case )

 

[bill addiss]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

There's no prohibition against EMT in concrete. There are caveats regarding corrosion protection when you do it though...

Tonyi,

I'm aware of that, but the odds are better that the installation was not done properly. It can be used in direct contact with the Earth too, but I've never seen an EMT service riser that didn't look like this:

Bill

[ November 23, 2003, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: bill addiss ]

 

[tonyi]

Re: Fixtures mounted on brick piers

My general sense reading about this one is there's likely a lot wrong here. Kinda like roaches or mice - there's never just one