Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

[jimwalker]

Where do we stand as per NEC if we use a florescent bulb in a incandescent fixture in a closet? would the 6 inch or 12 inch rule apply?
Please back answers with code not opinions.

 

[iwire]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

410.8(C) Luminaire (Fixture) Types Not Permitted. Incandescent luminaires (fixtures) with open or partially enclosed lamps and pendant luminaires (fixtures) or lampholders shall not be permitted.

It says open incandescent fixtures not permitted.

It does not say open incandescent lamps.

In my opinion that means no matter what lamp you want to put in place if it is listed as an incandescent fixture it is not permitted.

I would also say this would mean if it is listed as an incandescent fixture the 12" rule applies no matter what lamp type you put in it.

[ December 25, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

Luminaire(fixture)a complete lighting unit consisting of a lamp or lamps together with the parts designed to distribute the light.......
Is a keyless along with florescent bulb not a unit ? What if i buy a fixture that comes with the bulb?410.8 d 2

 

[iwire]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

1999 NEC

410.8(d)(2). Surface-mounted fluorescent fixtures installed on the wall above the door or on the ceiling, provided there is a minimum clearance of 6 in. (152 mm) between the fixture and the nearest point of a storage space.

Jim surface mounted fluorescent fixtures.

Not surface mounted incandescent fixtures with fluorescent lamps.

Fixtures are listed as a incandescent or fluorescent, some recessed trims are listed for both.

If the fixture does not have a ballast it is incandescent right?

If you reference the 1999 code please say so, most of us are using the 2002 code.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

If the fixture does not have a ballast it is incandescent right?
NO and YES and I'm using 02
is not a keyless lamp holder listed for this bulb?
the bulb is UL listed and package says it is fluorescent bulb
I assume it has electronic ballast in the base.
If i install this bulb in a UL listed keyless fixture i believe i met the requirement of a fluorescent (bulb plus holder). fixture.
Lets not forget the reason we stoped using incandescent bare bulbs.They caused fires due to items leaning on hot bulb.
This bulb creates no more heat than a 4 foot lamp.
The only objection i can see is if it is replaced by a incandescent bulb.And that is not covered by NEC is it?
A fixture is the total of a bulb or bulbs and holder

[ December 25, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

Jim UL has determined for us whether it is a incandescent or florescent fixture.

When you add a self contained florescent lamp to a incandescent fixture it is still an incandescent fixture.

From the 2003 UL white book.

UL MARK
The Listing Mark of Underwriters Laboratories Inc. on the product is the only method provided by UL to identify products manufactured under its
Listing and Follow-Up Service. The Listing Mark for these products includes the name and/or symbol of Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (as
illustrated in the Introduction of this directory) together with the word ??LISTED,?? a control number, the product name ??Luminaire,?? and the word ??Incandescent?? adjacent to the Listing Mark.

The Listing Mark of Underwriters Laboratories Inc. on the product is the only method provided by UL to identify products manufactured under its
Listing and Follow-Up Service. The Listing Mark for these products includes the name and/or symbol of Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (as
illustrated in the Introduction of this Directory) together with the word ??LISTED,?? a control number, the product name ??Luminaire,?? and one of the following words adjacent to the Listing Mark: ??Fluorescent,?? ??Wired
Fluorescent Channel?? or ??Wired Fluorescent Reflector.??

If the UL tag says incandescent fixture that is what it is no matter what lamp you put in it.

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

I agree with Bob on this. All references point to fixture or luminaire. There is nothing to prevent a person from installing a 150 watt incandescent lamp in the fixture when the fluorescent burns out. Jim sounds almost like you are arguing a point with an inspector.

 

[earlydean]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

If an inspector were to allow Jim's logic, and years down the road, the bulb failed and was replaced with an incandescent bulb, the likelihood of fire would be great. When this fire happened, the inspector would be tried and found guilty of malfeasance of duty and maybe even negligent homicide. Inspectors know this and would never allow the keyless to stay.

 

[pierre]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

I cannot see how this is an argument. Read Bob's posts as well as the code reference, it is plain as day. The NEC states Luminaires(fixtures), which are defined in the NEC. That combined with the UL listing/standards describes the situation quite well.
Installing a flourescent lamp in an incadescent fixture does not change the listing of that fixture.

Pierre

[ December 26, 2003, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]

 

[tom baker]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

A keyless lamp holder is not a luminaire, its a fixture.

 

[pierre]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

Tom
If you are refering to the 2002 NEC, a luminaire and lighting fixture are one and the same. 410.1

My understanding of a lampholder is, that part of the luminaire (fixture) that contains or holds the lamp (bulb), such as the screwshell or socket of a luminaire (fixture). When one has a table lamp, the screwshell, which may contain switching is the lampholder. See 410 Part VIII and IX. Another example would be the lampholder(s) in a chandelier.

Pierre

 

[tom baker]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

Here is the definition of luminare:
Luminaire. A complete lighting unit consisting of a lamp or lamps together with the parts designed to distribute the light, to position and protect the lamps and ballast (where applicable), and to connect the lamps to the power supply.

A keyless lampholder does not have the parts designed to distribute the light reflector or protect the lamp (lens).

If we look at the definitoin of Lighting Outlet:
Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

This and Art 410 clearly makes a distinction between luminare and lampholder.

Now if you install a PAR lamp in a keyless lampholder than that may be a luminaire!

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

Ok i'm fine with calling a keyless a LAMPHOLDER.Do not all luminaires have a lamp holder?
Now i screw in a flourescent lamp into this LISTED LAMP HOLDER
Do i now have a LUMINAIRE ?
1. It has a means of distributing the light
2. it positions itself
3.it has all the protection that it required( the package says nothing about needing additional protection).Do we not often have bare bulbs in fixtures ?
4 it will connect the lamp to the power supply.
It has met everything it needs to be a LUMINAIRE.
What exactly would we call this?and if your answer is other than a luminaire, then it is not in the unpermited list.

I only summited this to open up some minds.In reality i would not offer this in a new home ,as i to realise that a incandescent could easily be the replacement lamp.The NEC does not seem to cover this issue of wrong lamps being used in fixtures ,other than putting in a higher wattage lamp than the holder/fixture was designed for.It only needs to meet the code at the time of inspection to pass.Should it be altered after inspection then it may or may not violate a code.In this case a incandescent would clearly violate NEC.

[ December 26, 2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[a.wayne3@verizon.net]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

Boy you know how to stir the pot don`t you Jim!!!

 

[iwire]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

Originally posted by earlydean:
If an inspector were to allow Jim's logic, and years down the road, the bulb failed and was replaced with an incandescent bulb, the likelihood of fire would be great.

Hi Earl I tried to not go down the "what if" road, an inspector can not enforce "what if".

If I install a 60 amp disconnect switch and install 40 amp fuses in it with 40 amp conductors on the load side an inspector can not fail this because someone might replace the fuses with 60s at some point in the future.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Florescent bulb in incandescent fixture

Guys i just wanted to show how easy it is to twist the code to fit.Please don't do this as it would lend itself to mis use.And yes Allen i do like to stir the pot.LOL