Forced service upgrade?

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MNSparky

MNSparky

Senior Member
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Occupation
Electrical Contractor - 2023 NEC
Here's a good one...

A tree fell on a service drop the other day and pulled the mast loose from the house, bending it all up. We went out and replaced just the mast because the meter base was not damaged, like we've done a bunch of times. The house had an old 60A fuse panel in it. The inspector called my guy that did the work and informed him that we needed to upgrade the service to 100A, along with the grounding system. His reasoning is we worked on the service so we now need to bring that component up to current standards.

I know that the code doesn't specifically require a single family dwelling to have a 100A service, just a main disconnect that is rated 100A. This is going to be my main argument point when I call this guy back tomorrow. Otherwise the code doesn't really address repairing broken components, right? Has anyone else dealt with this issue?
 
George Stolz said:
Isn't this the time to fix it right? :huh:
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This would be a good time to do it if the homeowner wanted to. I don't see how the inspector can force them to. Kinda seems like they're being forced to buy a new car when all they need are new tires...
 
MNSparky said:
Here's a good one...

A tree fell on a service drop the other day and pulled the mast loose from the house, bending it all up. We went out and replaced just the mast because the meter base was not damaged, like we've done a bunch of times. The house had an old 60A fuse panel in it. The inspector called my guy that did the work and informed him that we needed to upgrade the service to 100A, along with the grounding system. His reasoning is we worked on the service so we now need to bring that component up to current standards.

I know that the code doesn't specifically require a single family dwelling to have a 100A service, just a main disconnect that is rated 100A. This is going to be my main argument point when I call this guy back tomorrow. Otherwise the code doesn't really address repairing broken components, right? Has anyone else dealt with this issue?
Click to expand...


Have your guy call that inspector back and tell him he needs something in writing that cites the code that requires the service change so it doesn't look like you're trying to pull a fast one on the HO.
 
MNSparky said:
Here's a good one...

A tree fell on a service drop the other day and pulled the mast loose from the house, bending it all up. We went out and replaced just the mast because the meter base was not damaged, like we've done a bunch of times. His reasoning is we worked on the service so we now need to bring that component up to current standards.
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Here we can permit as a repair ( say storm damage) or as new work and if it's repair work then items that are not a hazard can be replaced the way they are.

They may have adopted different local rules in your area but you need to talk to someone in charge and find out for any futures work. Everyone seems to have a boss and here (some jurisdictions ) it would be the building code official that has the real authority.

I don't see any reason you shouldn't be allowed to do repair work but maybe his insurance will pay for the upgrade if required. It's going to get expensive enough for an insurance claim.
 
Around here if poco needs to disconnect the service, it requires a permit to reconnect, if a permit is pulled, grounding must be updated as well.

Can't give any feed back on a 60amp to 100amp upgrade as there are very few in our area (being mostly electric - no gas) but if a home had one that small, we would probably push hard to upgrade to something larger since there is already a permit and the service is disconnected to do the other work.
 
If you do get forced to perform the upgrade, can the HO claim the extra costs as part of the insurance coverage for the event?
 
Sounds like the inspector is willing to take the heat for demanding the customer meet a reasonable code minimum. I wouldn't take on the fight. If they want to fight city hall they will have to once. With your profession, this will not be your last encounter with city hall and therefore becoming "that guy" may help this one customer but won't help you after the customer is done with you. I would defer to the AHJ in this whether I thought I was getting the work or not, it's not a greed motive.

It isn't my house; not my circus nor my monkeys.
 
MNSparky said:
A tree fell on a service drop the other day and pulled the mast loose from the house, bending it all up. We went out and replaced just the mast because the meter base was not damaged, like we've done a bunch of times. The house had an old 60A fuse panel in it. The inspector called my guy that did the work and informed him that we needed to upgrade the service to 100A, along with the grounding system. His reasoning is we worked on the service so we now need to bring that component up to current standards.

I know that the code doesn't specifically require a single family dwelling to have a 100A service, just a main disconnect that is rated 100A. This is going to be my main argument point when I call this guy back tomorrow. Otherwise the code doesn't really address repairing broken components, right? Has anyone else dealt with this issue?
Click to expand...
What part of town are you talking about? I've never had a mast repair on an existing meter socket lead to an inspector's call for a service size increase. Even with a damaged meter base (frozen lugs or cracked insulators) leading to a replacement with the PoCo required bypass socket, a size increase from 60 hasn't been called by inspection.

Of course, in the Twin Cities, a lot of legacy 240 / 120 V 60 A residential services have interior meters located right beside the service center. . . this isn't one of those, is it?
 
@MNSparky
What size wire did you pull? And is the inspector asking you to replace the wire, the service disco, or both?

I would say you should have pulled #4 wire, and not #6, because of 230.42(B).

(B) Specific Installations. In addition to the requirements
of 230.42(A), the minimum ampacity for ungrounded
conductors for specific installations shall not be less than
the rating of the service disconnecting means specified in
230.79(A) through (D).
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If the inspector is saying the 60A fused disconnect needs to be replaced ... If the disco was not at all damaged then I'd say the inspector is wrong. And if it was damaged and replaced I'd say he is right. Regardless you can still put 60A fuses in the disco as long as it would be suitable for 100A fuses. Maybe the same with a breaker in a panel, although that's more debatable.

You do a repair that requires replacing certain items, that doesn't obligate you to bring other items up to code. But the items you install should be to current code. In my opinion.
 
The only thing that was damaged was the mast and wire inside. We replaced with #2 AL XHHW in 1-1/4" sch 80 PVC. The meter base was undamaged and the SDM/fuse panel was not damaged.

I decided that I should go out and take a look at the service myself before calling the AHJ. Currently have a message into the homeowner to make an appointment. My guy didn't pay too much attention to the SDM, he just saw that it was #4 CU in the old mast, #4 CU leaving the meter to the SDM and a 100a meter base so he replaced with a 100a mast. He couldn't answer a lot of my questions.

I'm not disagreeing that the service should be updated, I just disagree on the call the AHJ is making and wanted some other opinions.... thanks for the feedback. I don't know if it's worth bringing up to him, but in my experience, if I approach it as a conversation rather than a confrontation I can usually stay in their good graces no matter the final decision.
 
MNSparky said:
The only thing that was damaged was the mast and wire inside. We replaced with #2 AL XHHW in 1-1/4" sch 80 PVC. The meter base was undamaged and the SDM/fuse panel was not damaged.

I decided that I should go out and take a look at the service myself before calling the AHJ. Currently have a message into the homeowner to make an appointment. My guy didn't pay too much attention to the SDM, he just saw that it was #4 CU in the old mast, #4 CU leaving the meter to the SDM and a 100a meter base so he replaced with a 100a mast. He couldn't answer a lot of my questions.

I'm not disagreeing that the service should be updated, I just disagree on the call the AHJ is making and wanted some other opinions.... thanks for the feedback. I don't know if it's worth bringing up to him, but in my experience, if I approach it as a conversation rather than a confrontation I can usually stay in their good graces no matter the final decision.
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I try to never start out with the dial set to "11". There's plenty of time to get loud later, if necessary.
 
MNSparky said:
The only thing that was damaged was the mast and wire inside. We replaced with #2 AL XHHW in 1-1/4" sch 80 PVC. The meter base was undamaged and the SDM/fuse panel was not damaged.

I decided that I should go out and take a look at the service myself before calling the AHJ. Currently have a message into the homeowner to make an appointment. My guy didn't pay too much attention to the SDM, he just saw that it was #4 CU in the old mast, #4 CU leaving the meter to the SDM and a 100a meter base so he replaced with a 100a mast. He couldn't answer a lot of my questions.

I'm not disagreeing that the service should be updated, I just disagree on the call the AHJ is making and wanted some other opinions.... thanks for the feedback. I don't know if it's worth bringing up to him, but in my experience, if I approach it as a conversation rather than a confrontation I can usually stay in their good graces no matter the final decision.
Click to expand...

You've answered to my questions/criticisms, and I agree that the AHJ is going too far.
 
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