FPE Panel question

[High Point Enterprises]

Hello,
I'm working in a doctors office that was built around 1980's. The building has a FPE panel in the basement. The owner asked me if it was possible to take out all FPE breakers and replace them with a different breaker to make the panel safer? (It is a 42 space panel)There are 2 other breakers in the panel that are not FPE (I think they are GE or something else).
I would rather do a panel change with new material than change out breakers and leave the 20 year old guts.

How could I explain to the owner that a panel change out would be the best option since he's got 2 of them?

Thanks
HPE

 

[Ponchik]

i believe once the interior is changed then you need worry about UL listing.

I have never done one but, i would guess the interiors of any brand will not matchup and line up with the FPE brand. Besides it is probably more work.

i am sure others with more experience will chime.

 

[kwired]

Inform them how much these replacements that will fit will cost.

I have not bought any FPE replacements for a long time but am guessing you will spend at least $25 up to $50 for each 1 pole breaker and $50 up to $100 for double pole breakers.

Now price a Homeline panel and breakers or GE, Siemens or other typical 1" breaker and see how much less it will be.

May even be less than it cost even when you throw in labor to replace it all, or at least close enough to easily validate just changing it to something that is not obsolete.

 

[kwired]

I would also consider asking the doctor if they think it is a good idea for you to go with what you feel is the inexpensive way when you go to them for health care, although it may result in complications that you never even thought of - because you are not a medical expert.

 

[zog]

Why do you think they need to be replaced?

 

[GearMan]

Not much to go on regarding replacement. Since the panel is a 42cct and other MFG's are installed, that rules out a plug on connection as in stab lok. Assuming small branch cct's, that rules out the larger molded case issue. Failure rates on the smaller frame bolt on breakers from this period were no worse than any other MFG. As pointed out, the expense of adding breakers to the obsolete panels should be of concern. If your customer is experiencing tripping issues or you notice any heating on the bus, I'd replace. GE breakers should not be installed. New technology and of current MFG is always best.

 

[stew]

Just from my own personal experience with FPE over the years I can point to at the very least 3 fires which we absolutly the result of 2 pole FPE breakers that did not trip when the should have. One had overheated conductors due to an overload in a small workshop space that had a welder connected to it. The 2 pole breaker in this case became a welder too!! Burned off insulation from the panel up the wall 6 ft until it ignited the stud where it passed thru a hole. The 30 amp breaker never tripped even when there was a dead short phase to phase. The wire finally blew off but not before the fire was started. Had this homeowner not been home he would have lost his house. So to those who say these breakers dont have any more prblems than others I say in my exprience pshawww.Replace this panel sooner than later IMHO>

 

[GearMan]

Just from my own personal experience with FPE over the years I can point to at the very least 3 fires which we absolutly the result of 2 pole FPE breakers that did not trip when the should have. One had overheated conductors due to an overload in a small workshop space that had a welder connected to it. The 2 pole breaker in this case became a welder too!! Burned off insulation from the panel up the wall 6 ft until it ignited the stud where it passed thru a hole. The 30 amp breaker never tripped even when there was a dead short phase to phase. The wire finally blew off but not before the fire was started. Had this homeowner not been home he would have lost his house. So to those who say these breakers dont have any more prblems than others I say in my exprience pshawww.Replace this panel sooner than later IMHO>

stew, you didn't read my post correctly. Bolt-on vs: Plug-on, big difference. I am not backing FPE. I too was involved in many issues, just pointing out common sense.

 

[kwired]

To the best of my knowledge there was only the original FPE breakers and some after market ones designed specifically for FPE panels. You can not just take a GE breaker or any other and plug it in this panel. Completely different bus to breaker connection design than any others out there. If GE made one it was a specific model for FPE only. I do know GE has a classified breaker that fits into QO panels, which would be a similar situation as the QO bus is completely different and not interchangeable with GE's THQL panels.

 

[hurk27]

Cutler Hammer makes a retrofit that from what I was told is UL listed to be installed into cans of other manufactures, since all busses and connections are changed, I can't see a problem with them, but they can cost more then just changing out the panel as a whole, the only places I have used them is when I have a panel embedded into block or concrete with would make a panel change imposable.

Back a few years ago, there was a company that made retro fit brackets to allow BR style breakers to fit into FPE, and another to allow BR breakers to fit Wads Worth, these usually came with a GFCI BR style breaker such as a ITE or Westinghouse, I don't think they were ever UL listed, but I used to see many in this area.

I would say if the panel is exposed (surfaced mounted) then change the panel to a new one.

 

[hurk27]

Hello,
I'm working in a doctors office that was built around 1980's. The building has a FPE panel in the basement. The owner asked me if it was possible to take out all FPE breakers and replace them with a different breaker to make the panel safer? (It is a 42 space panel)There are 2 other breakers in the panel that are not FPE (I think they are GE or something else).
I would rather do a panel change with new material than change out breakers and leave the 20 year old guts.

How could I explain to the owner that a panel change out would be the best option since he's got 2 of them?

Thanks
HPE

AS too the original question, sure it is possible, but should you do it, I wouldn't, since my name is on it, if something was to go wrong, and should someone get hurt, insurance investigators, would have you in court so fast, just because you installed breakers in that panel that were not UL listed for that panel, I would simply tell this doctor, that you can not afford to take these kinds of chances that would put you at risk to the liability of loosing everything you have, and if it caused someone to get hurt or killed you could even be held criminally accountable.

Life is too short to throw all you have worked to build away for a little extra money.

 

[jim dungar]

FPE made several different types of panels and breakers, there is nothing in the OP that says these are the Stab-loc design.

I agree with Zog, why does someone think these breakers need to be replaced?

Manufacturers have been building custom ordered interiors and trims to fit existing back boxes for decades (I sold my first one back in the late 70's), it is just that Eaton has recently(?) commercialized an offering.

 

[stew]

I also misread the op. and didnt realize we were talking bolt on breakers. not certain if they of similar design inasmuch as they were manufactured during the same time frame. I have seen the newest offerings from Eaton and have also called them to see if they are UL listed as there is no indidcation of that on thier device or literature. Turns out they are not UL listed or tested to be used in other manufacturers panels. I suppose if there was no inspection required then not a problem. Here in washington they would not pass inspection.

 

[hillbilly1]

I've done several of these change outs using Siemens guts and breakers, and yes they were bolt in. I have also had Square D build replacement gear using the exsiting enclosure. Was not real impressed with the fit on that job, they missed on the cover measurement by six inches and had to make a filler plate.

 

[Little Bill]

Hello,
I'm working in a doctors office that was built around 1980's. The building has a FPE panel in the basement. The owner asked me if it was possible to take out all FPE breakers and replace them with a different breaker to make the panel safer? (It is a 42 space panel)There are 2 other breakers in the panel that are not FPE (I think they are GE or something else).
I would rather do a panel change with new material than change out breakers and leave the 20 year old guts.

How could I explain to the owner that a panel change out would be the best option since he's got 2 of them?

Thanks
HPE

I also misread the op. and didnt realize we were talking bolt on breakers. not certain if they of similar design inasmuch as they were manufactured during the same time frame. I have seen the newest offerings from Eaton and have also called them to see if they are UL listed as there is no indidcation of that on thier device or literature. Turns out they are not UL listed or tested to be used in other manufacturers panels. I suppose if there was no inspection required then not a problem. Here in washington they would not pass inspection.

Where does he state in the OP that he had bolt on breakers?

 

[ActionDave]

It was not stated in the OP, but this line

There are 2 other breakers in the panel that are not FPE (I think they are GE or something else).

led me to think bolt on, and perhaps others as well.

 

[kwired]

It was not stated in the OP, but this line

There are 2 other breakers in the panel that are not FPE (I think they are GE or something else).

led me to think bolt on, and perhaps others as well.

I took that line to mean some of the aftermarket replacements which are still available. The original FPE are not available.

 

[Joethemechanic]

If they are FPE bolt ins, what is wrong with them?

FPE had a bad panel design, not every FPE product was bad.