FPE panel - should I be concerned?

[Pahpah-cee]

Hello,

I’m not an electrician by trade. I would appreciate a second opinion of my electrical panel for the house I’m renting. The house I believe was built in the 20’s. The enclosure doesn’t fully close which I’m sure is not acceptable. FPE stab loks are apparently not great from what I gathered. I’m sure rust isn’t good either.

I uploaded images of the panel and what I believe is the original panel next to it. I couldn’t figure out how to attach them to this post. https://ibb.co/album/C1RwQH

From my limited knowledge, I highly doubt this is safe. Could I get some help in what needs to be done to address this? My landlord is usually uninvolved, so I need to be direct in what needs to be done.

 

[tom baker]

While this is not a DIY post, we can comment on the pictures.
Generally it appears to have many code violations. If your landlord has not corrected to date, you may not get it fixed
at least get renters insurance

 

[LarryFine]

I believe the majority of us would recommend hiring an electrician to inspect this and write a report to submit.

 

[Another C10]

Well Lets see ....


No danger from what I can see here ..
an old distribution probably a junction point now.






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Looks like your doorbell transformer.
No real danger there except very old, maybe keep the door closed





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A little concerned on this, not sure what the return conductor is connected too.
a mis colored branch conductor on the top left breaker or its yellow, not white
missing a dead front or at least at the moment, keep the cover closed.

I see it now utilities comes from the top .. never mind



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The flex should be the branch circuits feeding the connections in the small panel shown below






Yep, its an old system .. an upgrade would be nice but, it appears fairly ok ..

 

[petersonra]

I more or less agree with c10. It's a bit old and could use some cleanup work but I don't see anything that would make me run away screaming. But it is hard to tell from pictures. If it bothers you, pay an electrician to come inspect it and write a report about it.

 

[LadyDi]

Wow! Can you move?

Otherwise, I recommend your landlord install a new service based on the 2020 NEC.

The 2020 AFCI requirements help you in two ways. First, AFCIs don't like to share neutral wires, so you're likely to get some new branch circuits.

Next, if you don't get some new branch circuits, AFCI protection would protect you and your family against fires that result from three types of arcs by tripping the breaker. No power, no fire.

AFCIs use electronic parts. Therefore, they are sensitive to variations and can trip. In your case, you cant afford AFCI tripping because of utility issues. The 2020 NEC fixes such issues for dwelling units because it requires surge protection at the service.

I'd also ensure your smoke detectors use batteries and that your batteries are good. In these gems, fire protection is critical.

Good luck!

 

[LadyDi]

As noted by others, some brands of AFCIs work regardless of shared neutrals. For example, Ge and Siemens.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Wow! Can you move?

Otherwise, I recommend your landlord install a new service based on the 2020 NEC.

The 2020 AFCI requirements help you in two ways. First, AFCIs don't like to share neutral wires, so you're likely to get some new branch circuits.

Next, if you don't get some new branch circuits, AFCI protection would protect you and your family against fires that result from three types of arcs by tripping the breaker. No power, no fire.

AFCIs use electronic parts. Therefore, they are sensitive to variations and can trip. In your case, you cant afford AFCI tripping because of utility issues. The 2020 NEC fixes such issues for dwelling units because it requires surge protection at the service.

I'd also ensure your smoke detectors use batteries and that your batteries are good. In these gems, fire protection is critical.

Good luck!

I don’t really see anything that screams ”move”…

With that type of advice I can see a need to have four or five times the licensees in America to replace every install not up to the 2020 code.
There are thousands of houses like this with older wiring and many more that are much worse across America.

We just recently disconnected our last 120V residential service.

C’mon Di, I sorted of expected that type of response from a Home inspector.

What if his state isn’t on the 2020?

 

[ptonsparky]

I agree, LLS, but I've seen worse.

Some of the items could be removed because they are no longer being used.

On a personal note, that describes me.

 

[ActionDave]

.....Next, if you don't get some new branch circuits, AFCI protection would protect you and your family against fires that result from three types of arcs by tripping the breaker. No power, no fire.

Is there any evidence to support this? AFCI breakers are notorious for tripping on anything other than an arc, 120V isn't really capable of sustaining an arc, and AFCI breakers and devices don't do anything to interrupt a glowing connection which would be the most likely cause of an electrical fire.

Michigan removed all AFCI protection at least four years ago. Have there been any more fires in houses built in the AFCI era in Michigan vs other states?

 

[LadyDi]

I agree, LLS, but I've seen worse.

Some of the items could be removed because they are no longer being used.

On a personal note, that describes me.

Hahaha! Many times I felt like Hay Hay (the chicken from Moana) expecting a breaker of that brand to trip that would not!

 

[LadyDi]

Is there any evidence to support this? AFCI breakers are notorious for tripping on anything other than an arc, 120V isn't really capable of sustaining an arc, and AFCI breakers and devices don't do anything to interrupt a glowing connection which would be the most likely cause of an electrical fire.

Michigan removed all AFCI protection at least four years ago. Have there been any more fires in houses built in the AFCI era in Michigan vs other states?

Humm. I like your questions, and I'll get back to you asap.

 

[LadyDi]

I don’t really see anything that screams ”move”…

With that type of advice I can see a need to have four or five times the licensees in America to replace every install not up to the 2020 code.
There are thousands of houses like this with older wiring and many more that are much worse across America.

We just recently disconnected our last 120V residential service.

C’mon Di, I sorted of expected that type of response from a Home inspector.

What if his state isn’t on the 2020?

Hello~ LOL-a home inspector, ouch! In context, my In context, my advice comes from much experience dealing with FTE.

Humm. I like your questions, and I'll get back to you asap.

Humm. I like your questions, and I'll get back to you asap.

I attached Siemens specs to this text, which describes how they build their AFCIs.

 

[LadyDi]

Is there any evidence to support this? AFCI breakers are notorious for tripping on anything other than an arc, 120V isn't really capable of sustaining an arc, and AFCI breakers and devices don't do anything to interrupt a glowing connection which would be the most likely cause of an electrical fire.

Michigan removed all AFCI protection at least four years ago. Have there been any more fires in houses built in the AFCI era in Michigan vs other states?

Great questions! I attached Siemens specs to this text. Regarding your second question, I need the some time. I'll get back to you asap.

 

[LadyDi]

I don’t really see anything that screams ”move”…

With that type of advice I can see a need to have four or five times the licensees in America to replace every install not up to the 2020 code.
There are thousands of houses like this with older wiring and many more that are much worse across America.

We just recently disconnected our last 120V residential service.

C’mon Di, I sorted of expected that type of response from a Home inspector.

What if his state isn’t on the 2020?

Hello~ LOL-a home inspector, ouch! In context, my advice comes from much experience dealing with FTE.

Nevertheless, I agree with your statement, "There are thousands of houses like this with older wiring and many more that are much worse across America." For this reason, I recommend using the 2020 code to install new services, regardless of the municipality rules.

Here are my questions.

• What code cycle requires AFCI protect nearly everywhere in a dwelling unit?
• What code cycle requires SPD's at the service?
• What's the relationship between the two above-referenced devices?
• What problem does the 2020 code solve?
• How would adopting the 2020 code change our (electricians) attitude about AFCIs?
• Would this new behavior save lives?

Moreover, in the house described in the original question, who knows the wiring surprises one is likely to discover. For that reason, I was suggesting that if a new service is installed, then one might consider choosing a manufacturer that builds protection in their breakers regardless of shared neutrals.

 

[LadyDi]

Is there any evidence to support this? AFCI breakers are notorious for tripping on anything other than an arc, 120V isn't really capable of sustaining an arc, and AFCI breakers and devices don't do anything to interrupt a glowing connection which would be the most likely cause of an electrical fire.

Michigan removed all AFCI protection at least four years ago. Have there been any more fires in houses built in the AFCI era in Michigan vs other states?

"Michigan removed all AFCI protection at least four years ago. Have there been any more fires in houses built in the AFCI era in Michigan vs other states?"

I attached both sides of the AFCI issue and Michigan for curious folks. Let me think a bit. Chime in anyone?

 

[zbang]

Ignoring all the flapping about AFCIs)

Otherwise, I recommend your landlord install a new service based on the 2020 NEC.

The service looks new enough, and also appears to be a combo meter/panel. Probably all that place needs is to move the few things from the ancient panel to either the main one or onto a new sub-panel.

BTW, it's possible to combine multiple quotes into a single post.

 

[hillbilly1]

Really depends on the HO or tenant, do they like plugging in a bunch of electric heaters? Do they have poor housekeeping and pest control? Has structural modifications disturbing the wiring recently? A lot of factors on what causes wiring failures. FPE does have a lot of high trip current issues, but then so does GE. (Not to as bad of an extent). If you have high current devices, or equipment that have known catastrophic failures, then you need to start really worrying.

 

[LadyDi]

Great questions! I attached Siemens specs to this text. Regarding your second question, I need the some time. I'll get back to you asap.

I attached a NFPA Research report for a third source of fire information. Here’s one concern, if true, for folks living in Michigan.

“Arcing served as the heat source in almost three-quarters (73 percent) of the home fires involving electrical distribution and lighting equipment, and these fires also accounted for a great majority of the civilian deaths and injuries and direct property damage…” (NFPA, 2022).

 

[Hv&Lv]

Hello~ LOL-a home inspector, ouch! In context, my advice comes from much experience dealing with FTE.

Nevertheless, I agree with your statement, "There are thousands of houses like this with older wiring and many more that are much worse across America." For this reason, I recommend using the 2020 code to install new services, regardless of the municipality rules.

Here are my questions.

• What code cycle requires AFCI protect nearly everywhere in a dwelling unit?
• What code cycle requires SPD's at the service?
• What's the relationship between the two above-referenced devices?
• What problem does the 2020 code solve?
• How would adopting the 2020 code change our (electricians) attitude about AFCIs?
• Would this new behavior save lives?

Moreover, in the house described in the original question, who knows the wiring surprises one is likely to discover. For that reason, I was suggesting that if a new service is installed, then one might consider choosing a manufacturer that builds protection in their breakers regardless of shared neutrals.

My statement was more in regards to your first comment, basically recommending they move and giving the impression they were in mortal danger living there.

In 2023 are you going to recommend every service that doesn’t look great be changed out to a new one that follows the 2023?

just because an installation is 20 years old doesn’t make it inherently unsafe.
ALL FPE panels aren’t unsafe.
I have noticed some very good looking FPE panels that have the newer breakers installed that will trip on faults.
I’ve also looked at some 5 years old that were so corroded and burnt you would swear they were ancient.