FPE Panel swap, Aluminum wiring. Inspector requesting all device terminations be updated.

[Sra328]

I have recently been asked to provide pricing to retrofit multiple FPE panels at 2 ~100 unit apartment buildings. ~70% of the branch circuits originating at these panels are aluminum wiring.
These are common area panels that serve mostly hallway receptacles and lights. AHJ is going to require that I have no aluminum terminate on existing devices. We are not modifying any wiring other than re-terminating circuits to new branch breakers.
Is the AHJ within his rights to request this? I have asked several colleagues and some say yes, some say no, but none can provide NEC backup. 110.14 does not, IMO, provide enough guidance for this situation.

 

[infinity]

FPE and aluminum? Are you sure it's not tinned copper?

 

[Sra328]

FPE and aluminum? Are you sure it's not tinned copper?

I am 99.9% sure it is aluminum

 

[letgomywago]

Ask if they have ever required this before and if not why all of a sudden it's on you. If there's a written amendment or some sort of written policy change then you might be stuck fixing this. Otherwise it might just be a "I'd like to see" with not weight on it.

 

[jaggedben]

There is nothing explicit in the NEC that would back up what the AHJ is asking for. However if the AHJ can make a warranted assumption that the aluminum is of a certain age and claim it now presents a hazard even if compliant when installed, then they could simply cite 110.3(A)(8). As far as whether or not the device terminations should or should not be 'grandfathered' because they are outside your proposed scope of work, IMO they are overreaching compared to most AHJs. But that's ultimately their prerogative, or depends on local ordinance, and is not addressed in the NEC. Perhaps they have actual experience with similar issues in similar buildings in the jurisdiction. Perhaps be glad they don't force the full replacement of the wiring, because that could also be 'within their rights'.

Another consideration might be whether the devices are listed for aluminum terminations.

Here's another thread with a good post of background info about this:

AL branch circuit wiring.

Is it still legal, ( Not that I would do it), to wire a house with AL conductors for the branch circuit wiring? Or does the NEC prohibit AL wiring for branch circuits. I was under the impression it does prohibit, but unable to locate it in the NEC.

forums.mikeholt.com

 

[rc/retired]

My AHJ could never make such a request. Neither the great citizens of the city nor the city council would stand for it.
Certainly not a code issue if the aluminum wiring is terminated properly.

Ron

 

[jaggedben]

Another practical argument to make might be tell the AHJ (in passing, at the end of the conversation) that you hope the building owner doesn't just back out of the whole replacement project if if the AHJ forces this additional cost.

 

[zbang]

Is "devices" here all the switches and receptacles or is it the (new) breakers? If it's the former, see above; if the latter, it all depends on the listing of the new breakers, might check with the mfg to be sure.

 

[PaulEd]

AHJ is going to require that I have no aluminum terminate on existing devices.

If you are changing out the panels and breakers are you saying he’s going to want you to go in the field and change the devices that the aluminum terminates on or change the wiring that feeds these existing devices?

I doubt very much he can do that. If the breakers you are using are rated for aluminum conductors then that IMO would be all that is required no?

 

[mtnelect]

Why do you care ... Just give them a price for what they ask for ?

 

[letgomywago]

Why do you care ... Just give them a price for what they ask for ?

Because itll affect competitive bidding.

 

[Sra328]

Is "devices" here all the switches and receptacles or is it the (new) breakers? If it's the former, see above; if the latter, it all depends on the listing of the new breakers, might check with the mfg to be sure.

switches, receptacles, and light fixtures.
The new breakers will be CU/AL rated so that is not a concern.

If you are changing out the panels and breakers are you saying he’s going to want you to go in the field and change the devices that the aluminum terminates on or change the wiring that feeds these existing devices?

I doubt very much he can do that. If the breakers you are using are rated for aluminum conductors then that IMO would be all that is required no?

Yes correct. I am saying he will require us to visit every field device on each circuit that has aluminum wiring and use a device or termination suitable for aluminum conductors. I can not find a TR AL rated receptacle, so it would be Alumiconns with copper pigtails.

I agree he should not be able to do this, and I also fully agree that as long as the breakers are AL rated then there should be no other requirements.

Why do you care ... Just give them a price for what they ask for ?

I care because this is a valued customer who's return business is important to me.
Why bother commenting this at all?

Because itll affect competitive bidding.

 

[petersonra]

It seems to me that it is not your problem. Let the owner fight it out. It's really his problem. You should stay out of it

 

[Eddie702]

I agree with what @jaggedben posted that this additional work may cause the owner to back out of doing any work or try and find another contractor (maybe unlicensed) to do the work jeopardizing the relationship @Sra328 has with his customer.

The contract to replace the panels has nothing to do with what is connected on the other end of the conductors other than the breakers being the correct size for the conductors that were previously installed.

If you go into a house to rewire the kitchen remodel and multiple violations exist in other rooms or in the basement you are not required to bring the other room and violations "up to code". If you do a service change, are you required to check every device, and every circuit previously installed.?? NO

I don't feel the inspector has any right to force this additional on someone.

If the inspector feels there are existing violations that need fixing he should put it in writing to the building owner.

 

[Steve16]

I've had insurance companies require this, but never an inspector. Where in New England?