The question I have is. Can you run a generators starting conductors of a stand-by generator in the same raceway as the feeder conductors. The starting conductors are a class 1 circuit and are the same insulation type and voltage rating of the feeder conductors. In article 725.48 it says they can be if they functionally associated. And if so can someone explain "functionally associated"
Functionally Associated
- Thread starter rblaney
- Start date
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ceb58
Senior Member
- Location
- Raeford, NC
Yes, you can. Some of the mfg. instructions say no. The functionally associated would be a scenario you are proposing. The class 1 circuit is for starting the generator, the feeders are from the generator. You could not run the conductors together if one set were for the generator and the other for a door bell.
LJolley
Member
- Location
- Baltimore County Md
Thanks Mr. Blaney for bringing this up on here. I have always relied on your vast code knowledge, hence me bringing you this query. The way we are interpreting that question is, no. The class 1 wiring from the transfer switch to the generator starts the generator. The feeder conductors from the generator to the transfer switch and ultimately to the load are not "functionally associated". Case in point, the manufacturers recommend seperating these circuits. At least one of the manufacturers has a prewired "whip" for their system. The problem is that they can not provide us with the listing for that particular "whip". We've been asking for the listing on these for several months now, with no answer. Several electricians that have taken a course given by the manufacturer, have even stated that the instructor has told them they need to have them separated.
ceb58
Senior Member
- Location
- Raeford, NC
Not sure where you are coming from saying the starting circuit for the generator and the feeders are not associated.
Lets look at this from a code stand point. IF the mfg's. instructions state the start circuit should be ran separate then it would be a violation of 110.3 (B) if they were ran together. If the mfg's instructions were silent on the matter then it would be code compliant with 725.48 (B)(1) and 702.9.
Generac is not going to provide you that info. The complete system is listed and approved by UL as package. The fact they state to separate them is a CYA thing. There are thousands of DIYers installing these units and doing it as cheep as possible. So if they used cat5 in with the feeders and there were a short that caused damage its their way out.
LJolley
Member
- Location
- Baltimore County Md
A reply from my boss to one of the electricians in our area...
"725.48(B): "Class I circuits and power-supply circuits shall be permitted to occupy the same cable, enclosure, or raceway only where the equipment powered is functionally associated" In the case of these installations the 'equipment powered' is normally the dwelling or building. Class 1 circuits are installed under a different set of requirements than other circuits so it is very important that they be kept separate from those other circuits unless those circuits are indeed functionally associated with the class 1 circuit. We do not see how the building and its various equipment is functionally associated with the start up process of a generator which is NOT powered by those circuits; nor do these class 1 circuits have any control of or affect on those circuits being powered.
The signaling circuit shall not be in the same raceway with the power conductors
The whips shall have the proper UL marking on them or the installation shall comply with Art 725.48(B)
Also,
According to the U.L. white book: "Prefabricated wiring assemblies are marked with the conduit, tubing, or cable type, and the conductor size and type to permit determination of their suitability for a specific application and ampacity in accordance with the NEC. A parts list is provided with each assembly to identify the extent of the product". These markings are NOT being provided. Consequently we can not even accept those whips that come with the transfer switches unless they are marked by UL as being suitable for the particular installation."
If the manufacturer does indeed state this, as a CYA, or for any other reason then yes I agree 110.3(B) does not permit the wiring methods to be put together.
Also as stated on another thread a couple years ago on this topic, the term "functionally associated" as used in 725,48 is a very ambiguous term. We interpret that to be like the start up and run circuits in a motor circuit. Not the start up of the generator and the feeder circuit to the transfer switch.... Again that is our interpretation. So we still have 110.2 which ultimately is left up to 90.4
FYI in our state and more in particular our jurisdiction, it is illegal for the DIYers to install any electrical work. Much less a complicated system like a generator back up system with an automatic transfer switch.... Face it, if we as the "qualified persons" can't always agree on these issues, how can the DIYer even start to understand them...
"725.48(B): "Class I circuits and power-supply circuits shall be permitted to occupy the same cable, enclosure, or raceway only where the equipment powered is functionally associated" In the case of these installations the 'equipment powered' is normally the dwelling or building. Class 1 circuits are installed under a different set of requirements than other circuits so it is very important that they be kept separate from those other circuits unless those circuits are indeed functionally associated with the class 1 circuit. We do not see how the building and its various equipment is functionally associated with the start up process of a generator which is NOT powered by those circuits; nor do these class 1 circuits have any control of or affect on those circuits being powered.
The signaling circuit shall not be in the same raceway with the power conductors
The whips shall have the proper UL marking on them or the installation shall comply with Art 725.48(B)
Also,
According to the U.L. white book: "Prefabricated wiring assemblies are marked with the conduit, tubing, or cable type, and the conductor size and type to permit determination of their suitability for a specific application and ampacity in accordance with the NEC. A parts list is provided with each assembly to identify the extent of the product". These markings are NOT being provided. Consequently we can not even accept those whips that come with the transfer switches unless they are marked by UL as being suitable for the particular installation."
If the manufacturer does indeed state this, as a CYA, or for any other reason then yes I agree 110.3(B) does not permit the wiring methods to be put together.
Also as stated on another thread a couple years ago on this topic, the term "functionally associated" as used in 725,48 is a very ambiguous term. We interpret that to be like the start up and run circuits in a motor circuit. Not the start up of the generator and the feeder circuit to the transfer switch.... Again that is our interpretation. So we still have 110.2 which ultimately is left up to 90.4
FYI in our state and more in particular our jurisdiction, it is illegal for the DIYers to install any electrical work. Much less a complicated system like a generator back up system with an automatic transfer switch.... Face it, if we as the "qualified persons" can't always agree on these issues, how can the DIYer even start to understand them...
IMO your boss is wrong.
You gotta be kidding us, this is the USA and a HO should by all means be allowed to install electrical items in their own home. This doesn't mean they should not pull permits and have the work inspected but if I were a HO and were denied this privilege I would undoubtedly contest it in a court of law. In a couple of towns I have worked in a HO must take a basic mechanical and code test before they can pull a permit but they are not denied the right of doing so.
I do remember one area that forbid HO's wiring pools and even though I agree, I have a feeling that if it were challenged it could possibly be beaten.
Roger
I inspected three Generac installations in the past few weeks. I noted on the instruction manual that Generac did state the control wiring must be run in a separate conduit from the power wiring. I did find it interesting that, as I recall, on their pre-wired whips they are not separated
Roger, as a side note, most all of the incorporated areas in this area of TN dis-allow home-owner wiring (or plumbing). It's obviously done, but they will not inspect it or allow power if such is requested.
Roger, as a side note, most all of the incorporated areas in this area of TN dis-allow home-owner wiring (or plumbing). It's obviously done, but they will not inspect it or allow power if such is requested.
Ok so, do these areas allow working on your own vehicle?
And it should be.
With stupid laws such as those (sorry Gus) if it were something that didn't require an inspection for turning on power I wouldn't hesitate to do it without a permit.
Have these areas outlawed Big Box stores from selling electrical and plumbing supplies?
Roger
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
In NC the HVAC industry got the Big Box stores to stop selling HVAC equipment-- the units etc. I don't think I will live to see the electrical industry get that strong.
ceb58
Senior Member
- Location
- Raeford, NC
A reply from my boss to one of the electricians in our area...
"725.48(B): "Class I circuits and power-supply circuits shall be permitted to occupy the same cable, enclosure, or raceway only where the equipment powered is functionally associated" In the case of these installations the 'equipment powered' is normally the dwelling or building. Class 1 circuits are installed under a different set of requirements than other circuits so it is very important that they be kept separate from those other circuits unless those circuits are indeed functionally associated with the class 1 circuit. We do not see how the building and its various equipment is functionally associated with the start up process of a generator which is NOT powered by those circuits; nor do these class 1 circuits have any control of or affect on those circuits being powered.
The signaling circuit shall not be in the same raceway with the power conductors
The whips shall have the proper UL marking on them or the installation shall comply with Art 725.48(B)
Also,
According to the U.L. white book: "Prefabricated wiring assemblies are marked with the conduit, tubing, or cable type, and the conductor size and type to permit determination of their suitability for a specific application and ampacity in accordance with the NEC. A parts list is provided with each assembly to identify the extent of the product". These markings are NOT being provided. Consequently we can not even accept those whips that come with the transfer switches unless they are marked by UL as being suitable for the particular installation."
If the manufacturer does indeed state this, as a CYA, or for any other reason then yes I agree 110.3(B) does not permit the wiring methods to be put together.
Also as stated on another thread a couple years ago on this topic, the term "functionally associated" as used in 725,48 is a very ambiguous term. We interpret that to be like the start up and run circuits in a motor circuit. Not the start up of the generator and the feeder circuit to the transfer switch.... Again that is our interpretation. So we still have 110.2 which ultimately is left up to 90.4
FYI in our state and more in particular our jurisdiction, it is illegal for the DIYers to install any electrical work. Much less a complicated system like a generator back up system with an automatic transfer switch.... Face it, if we as the "qualified persons" can't always agree on these issues, how can the DIYer even start to understand them...
I have the same opinion as Roger.
What do they think "tells" the generator to start? The lack of utility power on the building that is connected and monitored to and by the transfer switch. In the smaller units the "control" wires are UTILITY sensing. In the larger units when the UTILITY drops out a relay closes causing the gen. to start. So how are they not associated?
As for the whip IMO he is wrong again. The small ATS's that have the whips are part of the transfer switch that is a UL approved assembly. http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/manuals/ezatsspec.pdf . These whips are not field installed into the ATS they are pre wired from the factory into the ATS.
For the fact your state doesn't allow home owners to do electrical work on their own home is the people's fault. Laws can be changed if enough people want it. Here in N.C. a home owner can pull the permit and do all of the electrical, plumbing, HVAC. They can be the general contractor as long as it is their main residence and the bank agrees to it.
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
On Kohlers, it voids the warranty to run the control wires (DC) in the same conduit as the AC wires.
Which is fine if that is not part of the instructions, if it is 110.3 (B) comes into play. If it's simply a recommendation and warranty threat I would say it would be my choice as to whether I wanted the warranty or not
As an aside, I have no doubt that if I were to notify Kohler that I would be purchasing a different manufactures unit because of this disclaimer that they would happily send me an exception to this rule.
Roger
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hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
My post is just a FYI, I've had Kohler start up techs refuse to sign off on an install because of that. I have always kept them separate on my Kohler installs, but some of our other guys didn't. :roll:
ceb58
Senior Member
- Location
- Raeford, NC
I was just in a meeting with the "other guys" rep. and the company that has our sales contract and dose our warranty work. This was brought up about tech. stating they would void the warranty or not sign off because the wrong size wire had been used for the signal circuit. There position was this was crap and the techs did not have that authority. The tech. should note the problem on the start up sheet and move on.
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